Great talk this past Sunday… The video however, “Superman’s Agent,” was frankly quite useless and very high school ministry. FYI… The Word can stand on its own and doesn’t need a video that is distracting.
Glad you enjoyed the talk. Sorry you didn’t like the video. There are many who come with barriers to hearing about God. We have discovered that laughter at times can help make someone more open to hearing about Jesus. When you see something you don’t like, know there are many others who needed that experience to prepare their hearts for the challenging words to come. Pray for them in those moments you find yourself becoming critical.
We free people to serve using their talents and creativity, some of whom are actors or filmmakers. Sunday mornings are just one small part of who we are as a community. On that day alone, there are people serving in the parking lot, cleaning the toilets, changing diapers, helping in tech, and so on. The speaker is one part of the entire community. Not all gifts look the same, but all of us are a part of sharing the message of God’s love and helping people connect to Jesus.
We use this approach as a direct application of the Word of God which challenges us to use the gifts we have received (Romans 12). We are so grateful for those who serve as artisans, kids’ workers, technicians, small group leaders, greeters, and so on. Each person serving on Sundays and throughout the week is a blessing to us and adds their own personality to their ministry.
If I can help more in the future, please contact me directly. I would be happy to share with you more why we do what we do in hopes of helping you find your place to serve with us.
Just wanted to jump on the encouragement bandwagon as Sunday was wonderful, humble, and so energizing. You are so right as well about the gifts we are given, and using them to reach people of different sizes, races, and mindsets, which in turn require differing modes of connection. I just started attending Mosaic, and while some performances don’t speak to me directly, I believe they are still of great benefit to someone…It’s wonderful to see a church use so many talents and give the people who possess them a chance to serve God. I am so grateful to have found this church and look forward to getting more involved :)
Im not sure if this is where we ask for life’s toughest questions but here it goes. I have been reading a lot in the book of Romans and in the book of James, and Hebrews 11 about faith. Now I see the amazing acts of faith so many great people of the bible have had, and how the book of James tells us to have hope and persevere through trials and to not let your faith be shaken. Now in many cases such as a illness or a unsaved loved ones, or in hopes for a ministry people tell you to keep your faith, not to lose hope and believe in the Lord that it is going to happen, cause if it is of God and your heart is in the right place then God will honor those request to work them out for his Glory. But what about when we go through a break-up or divorce. I have just experienced a break up after 6 years of being with the same person. I still think he is amazing although I am hurt. I didn’t do anything wrong and really neither did he. We had a pure God centered relationship and we are both worship leaders and youth leaders at our church. We got along great and at the time we felt we knew that God had us together for good and for an amazing plan and purpose. He broke up with me because he said he needed to complete his self with the Lord and not let anything distract that and he needed to sacrifice our relationship to let God completely fill him. I sadly but willingly agreed and didn’t even put up a fight, I figured if it is a Godly reason why should I try to fight with God, im going to lose Duh! It’s been two months now and a lot has changed we have both grown so much in the Lord seperately, but just recently he told me in what most people would say a “a mean way” that he wanted nothing to do with me anymore and that he doesn’t see me at all in his future and I need to accept that and stop thinking that he is the one for me. Did I mention that even up to this point I have done nothing to this boy to hurt him or distract him in this time. But I still have faith in us, I still think this is going to be just a time in the present, but I’ve seen vision with this person and no one else. I mean six years I wasn’t playing around it wasn’t a game to me. These visions and these hopes have not left although my heart is broken. Most people tell me to not keep these hopes to let go of them and forget the vision that I had. But in every other case that christians go through they tell us not to lose hope or faith in those visions but the incident that involves love your hope and faith is told to be turned off because one person just doesn’t see it. Why is this?? Why is it that in relationships you can’t hold onto a vision or a hope or the faith that you had in it for so long. When someone falls you don’t just lose the vision you had for your friend or loved one you belive in that vision and that it will come to pass in God’s timing. Is it wrong for me to keep believing in this relationship. Im mean Abraham and sara had no way of believing they could bear a child it seemed impossible but they did. Why can’t I take this situation that looks impossible and believe in God for it? This is a long summary of my question and my situation but I hope with Prayer and some thought I can get a good answer. Thank you so much and I will pray for whoever it is that will be reading this.
Hi eric waz up?
i agree with that person about the video.
I want to encourge and the leadership to not to be ashamed of teaching the pure word of God.Beacause the word alone is powerful enough Romans says that. thanks God bless
What a misfortune… I just wrote a very long post only to hit a wrong key and have it disappear.
I have not yet attended Mosaic, but am interested in doing so. One thing that is now holding me back, after reading these comments, is that material other than God’s Holy and Perfect Word is used as supplementation for it! My question is… if God’s word is perfect, why does it need supplemental videos? God says Himself that He will harden whom He chooses (Romans 9:18). If we needed more than just His word to bring people to Christ, He would have given us supplemental videos.
I would, as well, encourage the leadership to see the power of God’s word by itself! I have seen the most unlikely people transformed by the word alone (myself included) and would love to attend. I left the first church I went to because they felt that things such as books and videos (man-made things) were going to transform lives, and I rarely saw the fruit of it (new believers). The second church I went to based everything entirely on the word of God, and our congregation grew from 10 people to 500 in 4 years, a large percentage of these being new followers of Christ.
Just some things for the leadership to think about. I would love to show up this Sunday to see what Mosaic is about, but sticking around may hang largely on this.
Just within the past couple of weeks, I have been interacting with some non-believers”( a good friend and her mother-in-law), and let me offer this up to show what is on the hearts of seeking non-believers:
*My friend is seeking,and it is evident by the fact that she asks lots of questions at times. She did not really have a religious upbringing, is now married to a Catholic man and by default will now baptize her baby in that faith even though she says she has no “religion”, and really does not know much about the word of God. WHAT IMPACTS HER THE MOST is seeing genuineness in people. Seeing the fruit in their life and if they claim they follow Jesus, HE then earns more credibility in her mind. Because let’s face it– we ARE representing the name of Jesus out there in the world. So RELATIONSHIPS in a church would be what transform her heart. Maybe a video or two would soften it up, but it is the transforming word of God that will shape her heart anew. Not an overload of performances.
*Her mother-in-law was married to a very devout Christian (in terms of reading the word often, going to church faithfully, etc.)– but he left her and her children and has hardly been a part of their lives. She asks, how can a person who claims to love Jesus do such a thing? She is now experimenting… visiting different Christian churches… and she is most affected, again, by real relationships with people who bear good fruit in the name of Christ. She is suspicious of showiness. And will be most transformed by people investing in her life.
So Mosaic should put a lot of eggs in the “Relating to People One-on-One” basket, and that is how non-believing hearts will be transformed. Have several events on a weekly basis and mid-week, too, to reach out to people to answer their questions. Maybe a coffee talk mid-week, a brand new believer’s class, a picnic with food right after the service each week. THIS will serve the purpose that I feel Mosaic is trying to accomplish with all of the glitz and glam stuff (drama, mini-movies, etc.). The heart of the work will be achieved not through this, though, but through good ol’ one-on-one relationships.
Many questions plague both believers and non-believers alike:
(1) why do the seemingly innocent die horrible, random and untimely deaths: (e.g. young college graduate out on a morning jog run over and killed by a hit and run driver who is never caught; a young mother and wife suffers and dies from cancer; a young child struck with a terrible fatal disease; middle-aged husband and father killed on a business flight by hijackers who run his plane into the ground killing all passengers, crew and hijackers aboard; promising teenager killed in a drive-by shooting by gang members)
(2) why the glaring disparity of wealth and poverty in the world: (millions upon millions dying each year of famine and contaminated water and pestilence; over one billion humans lack access to clean water as we speak; billions living in urban slums in the 3rd world while billions in the First World [capitalistic industrialized nations] live in a seeming utopia of materialism, hedonism, wealth, etc. engorging themselves on mindless entertainment, pornography, drugs, sports, etc like the Romans in the Coliseums of the ancient Roman empire)
In reply to SE (and possibly others who may question the heart of Mosaic),
I couldn’t really tell whether or not you have attended Mosaic from the comment you left. But, I’d love to share with you the experiences I’ve had since my first visit to Mosaic 1 year ago, to the present.
I’ve been around churches since birth. Raised, thankfully, in a Christian environment and surrounded by believers my entire life. Grant it, I’ve met very genuine believers (people who have changed my life) outside of Mosaic, BUT I’ve never been surrounded by a whole community that desires nothing more than to share the love of Christ with others through nothing more/or less than RELATIONSHIPS as I have found in Mosaic.
I will admit though, having moved to L.A. from the mid-west, at first glance I was quick to judge the heart and true intension of Mosaic. Their “language” was different, their “attitudes” seemed odd, and their “spiritualism” wasn’t apparent enough… At least, that’s what I thought. You see, at first, it was me that was jumping to assumptions and forgetting relationships. I quickly believed that there were no real followers of Christ, and that it was all a big show. Thankfully, though, one thing that Mosaic does very well is create a comfortable environment for questions to be asked and answered. Being the outspoken person that I am, I expressed my concerns right away, and quickly and rightfully so was encouraged to begin to create relationships within the community. And, so I did.
I met people like Dana, the internship director, who taught me to “LOVE ON PEOPLE” when I would have much rather ignored them… or Julia, who challenges me to forget vanity, and serve the underpriviledged… or Elieen, who created Illuminate (a free arts camp for children in East LA) and allowed me to serve alongside countless other Mosaic members for 2 weeks in July volunteering our time and pouring out our hearts creating relationships with children, parents, and other churches in that community… There is also Dave, who works with College students attending FIDM in downtown L.A, who attended a creativity retreat (although he HATED creativity growing up) just so that he could RELATE to the students when he was back doing his ministry. In all honesty, there are countless individuals I could go on and on about.
I guess what I’m trying to share is that Mosaic is a community FULL of God’s love and grace, it is a community chasing after the heart of God, and it is a community excersing all possible means of sharing the message of Christ to a world lost without him. Our hearts burn with desire to turn the eyes of our society toward Him who loves us.
Please, do not doubt the validity on which Mosaic is founded… it is Relationship to God, and Relationship to people.
Much love!
Cynthia
MOSAIC:
Beauty beyond appearances. A place that calls me closer to my creator. Love personified. Warm. Safe. Teaching me the heart of Christ. Opening my eyes to the heart of humanity. Challenging me to live beyond myself. Pieces… peace… art… prophetic art. Inspiring me to become who God has created me to be. Seeking, searching, finding, finally understanding. Alone, isolated… introduced, welcomed, supported, HOME. Love personified.
Endless questions torment both the thinking men and women of faith as well as persons not of the Christian faith:
(1) why are the followers of the Christian faith tortured and killed throughout the globe while millions of other Christians ignore their plight and the Almighty also seemingly ignores them also (1.5 million men, women and children killed in the Southern Sudan by the northern Sudanese military over the last 20 years, victims mostly Christians and animists; hundreds of thousand of Korean Christians being tortured and worked to death in North Korean concentration camps now; hundreds of thousands of Christians imprisoned in Communist Chinese prisons and re-education camps along with millions of other prisoners such as free speech advocates and Falon Gong followers; thousands of Indonesian Christians killed, imprisoned, sexually assaulted in Indonesia over the past 10 years by Muslim mobs or Muslim militias, etc.;
(2) why the endless genocides throughout history particularly in the 20th Century and the early 21st Century in this world;
(estimated 12 million killed by Nazis in concentration camps; 1.5 million Armenians killed by Ottoman Turks; millions executed by Stalin; millions executed by Mao-tse Tung; estimated 20 to 30 million Chinese civilains killed by Japanese imperial military forces during WWII, including about 350,000 civilains and disarmed Chinese soldiers in one city alone, City of Nanking; about one million dead in Rwanda from genocide; close to 3 million killed in orgy of violence by Khmer Rhouge in Cambodia; one million Vietnamese civilains dead in Vietnam War in 1970’s alone; about one million Korean civilains killed during Korean War; one million American Indians killed by plague, war or starvation during Indian Wars in the U.S.;
an estimated mind-boggling 175 million or more humans deliberately extinguished by politically motivated carnage during the 20th Century alone by governments of the world’s nations via war or genocide according to to former U.S. National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzenzinski’s book
“Out of Control”
Critics of the Christian faith have called it the opium of the masses; a blind faith designed to numb the masses from revolting against oppression, discrmination, suffering, mistreatment, etc. while some believers have called to the road to heaven hard to find and narrow, seemingly saying that salvation is not a free, easy movie pass but a difficult journey, a hard road paved with suffering, doubt and a hard faith that one must hold tight in one’s hands lest the Evil One tear it from one’s breast with the cares of this fallen world.
(1) why are so many charlatan church leaders and cult leaders in the U.S. and all over the globe allowed to misuse the Christian faith to profit themselves financially and mislead so many from the true Word;
(2) why the apparently random disasters killing so many and causing so much untold suffering in the last 5 to 10 years on earth (e.g. 2003 earthquake leveling the City of Bam in Iran killing over 50,000 and destroying a city of 300,000; the 2005 Pakistan earthquake killing over 70,000 and leaving over one million homeless; the 2004 South Asian Tsunami killing over 200,000 persons and leaving millions homeless and destitute; the Gulf Coast hurricanes of 2005 in the southeastern U.S. including Katrina which killed over one thousand and left hundreds of thousands homeless; the mudslides and floods in Central America of the last several years which killed thousands and left hundreds of thousands homeless;
(3) why the seemingly blind indifference to the value of life in the last few years all over the globe from the cruel war in Chechyna which has caused tens of thousands of deaths and wholesale destruction of that Muslim nation by Russian military forces; to the war in the Congo (over 5 million dead from civil war, and war induced famine/disease over the last 5 years) to the wars in the Balkans (former Yugoslavia) where tens of thousands were slaughtered both Christian, and Muslim, Serb, Croatian etc. to the estimated 25 million American babies forever lost to abortions in the U.S. over the last 20 years??
The recent comments on the use of somethig other than God’s Word in the services at Mosaic seems to me to show a total lack of understanding about God. Standing on God’s Word is not just about speaking a message on Sunday, it is a totally holistic way of living life. Any understanding of God supports to idea that we are made in His image, therefore, we are creative beings and some of us are especially gifted creatively. To not use these gifts in His service would be to fall short of the mission he has called us all to. That is to reach an unbelieving world with a message of hope.
In Acts 17 we read abgout Paul developing a strategy to reach the unbelievers. He used the very idols that the Greeks worshipped as a means to explain the message of Christ. If it’s good enough for Paul to use props in her mesages I think it’s ok for us to as well.
On a final note. It was attending a church that encouraged me to use my media skills in order to enhance sewrvices that brought me to the place where I became a fully devoted follwer of Christ. Now 16 years later I am leading a community of faith and still using media in my talks.
I do attend Mosaic, and have been blessed tremendously to form wonderful relationships there– to truly encounter Jesus there– and to yearn to do His work. I never doubt the “validity” of the church, as you said.
I am merely saying: do not assume that just because a person is a “non-believer” that he or she is in need of anything EXTRA beyond the word of God– and that he/she somehow needs some special prepping for it. The word says that where God has begun a work, He will bring it to completion. Sometimes we can get in God’s way, truth be told.
NEVER underestimate the power that a one-on-one relationship holds. THAT is where the transforming work is done. And THAT is what needs to be most evident each and every Sunday.
Cliff, I totally agree with you. I myself am a very creative person and I serve God with my giftings. But what I was referring to was something different altogether:
Some people will come to know God by exploring their God-given giftings. This is the way we were designed. We serve Him whether it’s through dance or sweeping floors or changing poopy diapers in the nursery.
I was merely saying: during Sunday church services, a church should never feel that the word of God is not sufficient to stand on its own and penetrate into the hearts of non-believers. We cannot assume that just because I am a creative person and you are as well (in the “performing or visual arts” sense) that most or many non-believers will respond to this during the services.
Getting back to my original point, some if not many non-believers can be turned off by the showiness. This is what I meant by saying, sometimes we can get in God’s way. By allowing people to serve within their area of giftings (allowing so many performances of so many different kinds), in effect we sometimes are serving primarily the performers themselves and not the body as a whole. In other words, it can be a selfish thing (”I’m creative. I love God. Therefore, I will serve God with my giftings and this will enable non-believers to be more receptive to the word of God.”) NOTHING can be more powerful than the word of God. Like the comment from way back when from “Anonymous”, the word of God can STAND ON ITS OWN.
So yes, keep serving God with your giftings and I will do the same, and let’s keep on inviting our non-believing friends to do the same– and some will truly come to know God as a result.
But let’s not confuse the 2 issues:
*A performer wanting to serve God with his giftings.
*Thinking that a whole group of non-believers will be in need of seeing these giftings IN ADDITION to the WORD– in order to come to know God.
And my original question for this series:
How can a person who claims to love God hurt another person so profoundly? (The woman whose ex-husband was a “devout Christian” and then he ends up abandoning the family and is STILL active in church).
What do we say to people in instances such as these?
I’ve only attended one Mosaic service (at the Mayan) this past spring break when my wife and I vacationed in California. It didn’t seem overly showy to me. I was glad to see various creative arts being used, including video, music, lights, etc. And I haven’t heard anyone from Mosaic saying that creative arts are *required* in order for someone to enter into a relationship with God… but they sure do help! When we see that all of life, including the creative side, can be lived in relationship to God, it helps us see following Jesus Christ as the holistic, life-altering course of action that it is.
Keep up the good work, Mosaic! Present the Word of God in as many ways as you can: oral, visual, written, interpersonal, etc!
Wow, this message board has got some interesting conversations going. I have been watching, and thought, why not add my two cents?
As far as the “using our gifts” vs “needing those giftings in addition to the word of God”….here’s a thought. I think we may be trying to make this a black and white issue, when it isn’t. As an attender/volunteer staff at Mosaic, my fear is that there is an dangerous conversation starting here. Is it our job at Mosaic to create a “seeker” environment? If that’s the case, wow, we have a lot of things/programs missing. For the person who loves the arts, it may fulfill those wants and desires, but may seem showy to someone else. There is no way we as a community can be the perfect fit for anyone, let alone everyone. As Erwin has said so many times, Mosaic changes with every new person, and each person brings unique strengths and dreams. The point of Mosaic isn’t to meet a bunch of “needs”, but to reach out to others, and focus outwardly, rather than inwardly. I believe that not everyone who attends Mosaic will find it to their liking, and how could they? We are all different, and have different personalities. If Mosaic was the only church for everyone, then wouldn’t it be too big? I think it’s okay for those who find it too showy, to look for another church, and it’s doesn’t make one style right or wrong, but different. And, I truly believe that the heart of the pastoral leadership of Mosaic, is all about God’s word being the center of the community, and reaching out to others. I would hope that as a community we wouldn’t get caught up in this kind of talk, the conversation can lead to factions, gossip, and disunity among our church. Sure, sometimes things can seem unnecessary, but it’s impossible to have a standard here, since we all have different opinions regarding this. I think Eric summed it up perfectly, and we should let the conversation die from there. Correct me if I’m wrong, Eric, though. If this is a necessary and productive conversation to continue, I gladly stand corrected.
God Bless You all…..please find no offense in my words, I only speak from a place of being at churches in the past that became divided over simple issues such as these, and it changed the heart of the church. Also, I think it’s wise to seek some of these questions answered confidentially by leaders of the church, since this website is viewed by all, especially unbelievers.
We have never really spoken, but you have truly changed the course of mine and my families life and I thank you for that. Actually sorry. we met once… U2 tickets(please don’t read that part) Anyway I have had a question on my mind since you started this series last week, this should come out clear, but please bear with me as i have ADD and the attention span of a 2 year oldJ … SO,… FREE WILL…… we all have free will,.. but also we all have the desire to sin,.. not just a desire, but its the huge part of how our mind works… so then, how can we have free will when so much of our desire and internal motivation turns toward sin, and it seems very weighted toward the negative, and pastors say we are inherently sinners. There doesn’t seem to be an even playing field between sin and righteousness, I mean shouldn’t the desire be equal? I guess maybe this whole thing is something like a test because true love or Godly love can only be learned through hardship? It makes sense, sort of. Anyway, I know so many people struggle with a roller coaster of life’s ups and downs, so how come our desire to please God comes from the voice in the back of our head instead of the deep rooted drive that sin seems to have,… (after thinking about what you said last week, I myself would rather actually sacrifice my so called inherent sin-like decisions for just a moment if not a week long period of the divine peace that I hear about in heaven),… I understand that every human is seeking God in some way and that so many misguided hearts turn toward temporary satisfaction like drugs and alcohol, even knowing that there is something deeper that they are missing out on, I’m sorry maybe I’m alone in this, but I wish the desire to seek after God was just as strong as the desire to sin,.. and if consistent Godliness is stronger than I realize,.. how can someone with a life-long perpetual roller coaster of sin tap into that??
All your comments are valid, some nonbeliever might be put off by the use of media or whatever, as some believers quite obviously are. I really think the bottom line is for any church to follow what it it that they believe God has placed in their hearts to do. If a church uses the arts merely because it seems a good idea then that is certainly not valid. However, if there is a genuine belief that God is saying that this is part of the culture of your particular faith community then go for it.
Just a closing thought. Did Jesus rely just on the scriptures? I think not; he used story-telling to get his point across - and that’s no different to drama or video clips.
I have a very straightforward to the point question to ask, as you attend Mosaic and have given this topic a lot of thought from what I have read…
Is Mosaic more a church that uses things of man to gain believers, or the things of God? Things of man being videos, self-help books, performances, flashy glitz and glam, things of God being prayer, the Word, fellowship and love?
If you would like to email me in response, please write heikkebl@masters.edu. I don’t want to take away from the discussion.
And, in response to your question, Christians struggle heavily with idolatry and usually don’t recognize it for what it is. If we truly love and worship God alone, our actions are in response to that worship. We a. Love God, and b. Love others. If you are willing to sin in order to obtain absolutely anything, that thing is an idol. If a man leaves his family because he desires his own freedom and do things his own way, he may still love God, but he obviously loves and worships himself more.
As one of my teachers put it recently, why else would it make sense for God to command us first, and second, to have no other gods before Him, and to not make for ourselves idols? He knows where we struggle. Idolatry is at the root of all sinful behavior.
Anonymous (guy problem),
Its very sad to hear about your heart-breaking situation with this guy. My first instinct (as a guy) is that he has pulled the “God card” on you, using God as a scapegoat to break up with you. I’m sure you are a wonderful person, and he didn’t want to hurt you, so he put some religious icing, knowingly or subconsciously, on the break up. I hope that gives you some peace with God, but that probably doesn’t make the boy look very great. I could be totally wrong, but I’m a guy, and it makes sense to me.
A lot of folk seem pretty concerned that the “Word” of God is being veiwed as insufficient. And by the “Word” of God I assume you are referring to the myriad of letters, histories, poems we call the Bible. I would ask you to consider that the Bible as we have it is a relatively new resource…
1. Early Christians had no personal Bibles to read or study.
2. Up until the reformation, the Bible was kept in Latin and only a first-hand resource for the priests and highly educated. Many Christians weren’t even literate.
3. Up until the printing press, the Bible was not very widespread, even though it was translated.
We LOVE the Bible, that is good. But lets not keep it in the context of history, and see it appropriately as a tool, albeit a great one, through which God speaks.
If one has issues with Mosaic’s lack of scripture references, there are PLENTY of churches from which to choose. Please, don’t waste your fervor on criticizing one church’s approach. Find one you can get behind and serve God in that context.
Jen is right. We don’t want any divisiveness, so let’s just drop this topic. Hopefully, it served to show that there ARE concerns with the way church is being done. But God will stir in the hearts of those who are affecting change at our church. If something is awry, it won’t go unheeded.
Paul, it is certainly not biblical to say, “If you have a problem with the way church is done here, find one you like better.” In fact, I visited a friend’s church in L.A. a couple weeks back where the pastor happened to be talking about how there ARE valid concerns in a body at times, and these concerns SHOULD be heeded.
I was merely trying to say (again): that we should not be so self-absorbed to think that just because we are serving God with our diverse talents, that others (especially non-believers) will necessarily be in need of seeing/hearing our talents in order for the Gospel to pentrate their hearts. I am all for an occasional video and unique music and a dance performance or drama presentation here and there. But the Word does not require any embellishment. Use different mediums, yes. But everything in moderation.
Brittany, thank you for your response to my question. I know that if a person claims to love Jesus and then produces no good fruit (or bad fruit), that he is not truly following Him. I just wondered how others would phrase this in a conversation with non-believers. I saw this woman again yesterday, and it is amazing to see how even though her ex-husband temporarily tarnished the name of Christ, it has not been enough to squelch this curiosity in her heart. She is definitely seeking.
Your view(s) on the WORD are very interesting,in
light of the fact that jesus said ” not one jot or
tiddle would pass away,even though heaven and earth would pass” . it is of note that he also pointed out to the jewish religious authorities of his time that they elevated men’s teaching to a status higher than GOD’S WORD ,yet reduced the WORD OF GOD, to no effect , seems the more things change the more they remain the same.Hard to know where you are going if you have no idea (nor- value)for wence you came.If GOD’S WORD is a relative and shifting , variable , why bother to even play this game we call church ! If it is
about a relationship what value is a relationship
with one who’s word is unreliable ?
when i find i am getting heated about an issue, i’ve usually found an opinion i’ve allowed to become precious to me… when i get cranky with someone over an issue of opinion, i’m usually choosing to elevate my opinion above love for people. in jesus’ terms that’s a no-no… people come before my opinions!
i reckon it is fair to say that god is sovereign - whether we agree with what he does with his sovereignty or not. he sets a place at his table for every person he creates - there’s a unique seat at the table that’s shaped just to fit you. when we find our place at the table we discover that it just fits us…
there are people around our part of the grand table that are there to help shape us and we’re there to help shape them too - the post-modern creative terms it “synergy”; “iron sharpens iron” for the traditional literalist… the shaping can be vigorous, even fierce, as long as it’s built on authentic love…
i reckon there are times when the Father, seated at the head of the table, speaks to individuals asking them to move to another part of the table, to be better shaped by the people there and to help shape them. sadly, all too often the seat swapping is the result of a lack of love - given and/or taken - in the exchanges. some folks get up and relocate themselves without direction from Dad and carry a hurt and heavy heart
in my thoughts i’m often similar to others - there is much in the culture of the day that i share in common. i can guarantee though that if you spend enough time around me i’ll find an issue where i think differently from you. i can stick it out at my part of the table, understanding i’m shaping and being shaped… or i can put on my mr potato head and move on to another part of the table - without permission… or maybe with permission to move, but certainly not with permission to take a cranky attitude
some people may not get a buzz from creative presentation - some may prefer a literary buzz - some may like to impress with their performance and artworks others prefer to impress with their elevated knowledge of what the bible says, while actually the lack an authentic relationship with the Word.lots of different scenarios are possible… when i set up a scenario that’s built on my preferences i’ve just set myself up in the middle of my world - that my friends is idolatry… ouch
i have discovered over time that i am not the centre of the universe - even though everything in my experience causes me to believe i am. i have also found that my opinions change over time, the type of music, movies, literature, imagery changes and what i once got heated about - and damaged relationships over - is no longer an issue that i get heated about… so why did i damage that relationship in the first place?
if jesus is the Word why are we so uptight about the words? shouldn’t we be more concerned about doing what it says than reading what it says? isn’t that the point? isn’t it more important to embrace the accountant and the artist, the mathematician and the musician, the vagrant and the wealthy… is any one way the right way?
in all of jesus’ preaching there is a very small percentage of it that is in reference to the scriptures of his day. why do we insist that our public gatherings are so tightly anchored to the words written in the bible and miss the ethos of the living Word himself? the sermon on the mount is a refreshing message, clearly not restricted by trying to quote what parts of prior scriptures it refers to…
in fact a lot of jesus preaching is in contradiction to what the prior scriptures had said… of course he is jesus
if we want to work on percentages, i reckon you’ll find that, word for word, the devil quotes a greater percentage of scripture in what he’s quoted as saying… what’s that about?
jesus is incredibly creative - rather than simply refer to scriptures on healing, he heals; rather than preaching on forgiveness, he forgives; rather than just talk about it he’s doing it… to limit a gathering to just talking about what the words say can completely miss the challenge to do what the Word does
christian gatherings are vital, it’s an opportunity for diversity released in unity… if you’re the literary type and it’s all too creative, why not offer to put together part of a gathering that is focussed purely on public reading of the bible. if you’re creative and it’s all too literal, why not offer to inject some creativity into the gathering…
it’s easy to be a critic, once you’re involved you get to see the heart and figure if this is where you’re called to belong. if this is your seat at the table you can expect to be shaped and to be involved in shaping… don’t move just because there’s some shaping going on… but maybe Dad is asking you to move around to another part of the table for whatever reasons he has… so move around and get involved in the shaping process there
in the meantime we do need to sample food from the whole table, but we can eat with cutlery or with fingers, from silverware or bowls, reading the dish names from the menu or just enjoying what comes and being thankful to Dad for all the strange tastes and foods and folks that are seated at his table… because we certainly wouldn’t have chosen them!
Other hard questions that non-followers of the Christian faith often ask:
(1) what happens to generally “morally good” persons who are not Christians when they die physically?? Why should morally good non-Christians who do good works during lives be condemned to Hell, that is, eternal spiritual death ?? (e.g. good Mormons, good Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, good Atheists, good Jehovah’s witnesses, etc.);
(2) what happens to people who are generally morally good who never hear the Good News, the message about Christ and his Crucifixion and Resurrection; are they condemned to Hell ?? (e.g. a Muslim in Central Asia who never heard the New Testament or for that matter the Old Testament, never had access to a Bible or a Christian missionary, never heard of the love of God, the love of Christ, the love of a bleeding Savior flogged and crucified on a Roman cross for the sins of a fallen humanity ??; or an Indian in an isolated tribe in the depths of the Amazon who never had a loving Christian come to bring him the Good News of a God who took the form of a human baby to be born in a filthy animal’s stable in a small town called Bethlehem 2000 years ago ??)
3) another difficult question is what happens to all those Gentiles and Jews who were born, lived and died before the coming of Christ ; who never had the chance to hear Christ before he started his teachings in about 30 A.D. ; who never had a chance to hear of Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection in about 33 A.D.; millions of Jews and Gentiles who lived and died before the Messiah’s arrival in Bethlehem so long ago; 2000 years; 2000 years so long to us humans but only a second in the view of the Creator…..Shalom.
The sad thing is that I have no passion for anything anymore. I did, at one point, I had passion for a lot of things. But when i think hard about what my dreams are, I have none. I want to help people achieve their dreams, but how can i do that when i have none of my own? and how long have we been having this conversation, where we talk about how much potential I have waiting to be unleashed? I’m beginning to think its never going to be unleashed!! Doesn’t it feel like we’re wasting time? I’m not trying to throw a pity party here, but for cryin out loud, I feel like a lost cause. I listen to Erwin every day at work, and I hear what he’s saying and I long for that and I feel like I need more, but honestly I don’t know how to get there, or what to do, because I have no dreams. Listening to Erwin talk makes me realize what I could have but I can’t figure out how to get it. Like, how do you give yourself to God and really mean it? I’m a cynic, I can’t help it, and I doubt myself, and my strength.
Becky: I sympathize with your feelings about a lack of passion and the problem of cynicism. I know that you with God’s almighty help can overcome this serious problem.
Focus on the love of God, the love of Christ and this will help you. Focus on the Passion of God, the Passion of the Christ. Christ who endured so much for all of us, for each and everyone of us. The Passion of Christ should give each and every one of us “passion”; a passion to run the race and the finish the race. A passion and a focus not to be distracted by the cares and worries of this fallen world. We are all but pilgrims and aliens to this fallen world.
Our true place lies in Heaven but we need to do our best to improve this world during our short stays here; and to spread the Good News while we are on earth. Our physical lives are short and quite brief. We must try to spend every day as though it were our last on this earth.
Christ spent a short 33 years on this earth but he forever changed it and forever “made things new” by his Sacrifice and his Passion. He made things new by overcoming death and sin for each and every one of us by his love, his Passion for us.
By his crucifixion and Resurrection all things are made new; death and sin are overcome; each human now has the chance by His sacrifice at eternal life and forgiveness of his/her sins.
The move the “Passion of the Christ” has a key scene where the Virgin Mary, stops to help Christ as he falls while carrying his wooden cross on the way to Calvary and His Crucifixion.
She weeps for her son and Christ comforts here saying to the Virgin Mary: “I make all things new”.
In order to have our talents, our dreams, our passions and our potentials truly unleashed we must focus on the Will of God, the love of God, and the Passion of God. By focusing on Christ’s Passion, all things will be made new for us.
Shalom and Blessings.
When it comes to “using props†to get God’s Word out to those who can not see it in black and white (with some red – ya know, Jesus’ word’s in the Bible), didn’t Jesus use parables to help illustrate His point at time? Didn’t He use what he had for the times?
Props, videos, stories, parables; it’s all good!
Phew, just finished reading all these interesting comments posted by you lovely people out there in cyberspace. For a while there though I was feeling tempted to throw in some facetious comments around some aspects of whats been said but that’s a trait I’m trying to curb.
I’m going to refrain this time, but I do have some general advice though. For those posting comments and who attend Mosaic I strongly encourage you dialog about your concerns in person. This website is great for those of us who are geographically separated from Mosaic. Through this website we can feel a sense of some connection with the Mosaic community. But for those you who are physically present in LA and attending Mosaic, your most constructive mechanism is talking face to face. Some have spoken of relationship being central to the body of Christ. Take Jesus’ lead and discourse directly with the source of anguish; who knows, you might make some new friendships in the process.
New comment = new post:
I would like to address some of Becky 21’s comments (post # 33).
Man, it absolutely sucks Becky that you are feeling that your passions and dreams have dried up. I wish we could meet one another. I would love to hear your story. But as the opportunity for that to happen will not exist in the immediate future, I would like to offer some suggestions. But before I begin, without actually meeting you, these may be irrelevant to your situation. Please take them with a grain of salt.
*Harking back to some of Erwin’s advice in Seizing Your Divine Moment, GO until you get a NO. Its actually OK to not always have a bigger idea or dream that you are chasing. What is important is that you are not watching life go by and that you are not standing on the sidelines waiting for something to happen to you to ignite that new dream. A good place to start building momentum is around the stuff you like doing and are good at. You mentioned that you want to help others realise their dreams. Have you given much thought to how you can place yourself in a position to begin learning how to do this? Maybe there is a specific area which you can bring insight to other people? Much like yourself, I want to help other realise there dreams. One of the things I do is to be relentless in acquiring new information on on topics which benefit the people I am trying to help. The caveat here is, you have to already have the relationships in place in order to to do this. See next suggestion
*Make people your focus (re Erwin’s L.I.F.E acronym). Learn to listen to what is going on in others lives. Make this a life priority. You may find that there are themes of issues among the people you know which you can help them with. Focus on helping them solve these things.
*A great way to become impassioned about something is to hang out with people who are clearly driven by a dream. Rare I know, but enthusiasm is infectious. Make friends with the people who are going to continually challenge you. Be bold and take on these challenges. Positive peer pressure is a powerfully motivator. Moreover, they may not be your peers, but older people who you respect are often wealths of untapped knowledge. Make sure you travel through life with at least a couple people one or two generations older than you.
*If you are into reading, find the best books that expand you comprehension of an area interest. I didn’t give much credence to books at high school, but something fell into place while I was at university and I just can’t get enough now. The experience of others is invaluable to help you learn about what to do, and equally important, what not to do. Books are still the best medium that records a person’s insight gained from experience (let me be clear that the self-help style book is not what I am advocating). In regards to the slightly broader issue of information, make sure your sources are diverse and stretch the relevant opinion spectrum.
*Finally, the greatest dreams for your life will be the hardest to achieve. Don’t give up trying to figure out your dreams. God has chosen you for a specific reason. You have a potential that no else has. You have gifts and strengths that are unique to Becky 21 and irreplaceable. There will be people throughout your life who will need you to be applying your gifts in pursuit of a dream in order for Becky 21 to impart God’s irreconcilable impact on their lives. You have more significance to God that you may know. And remember this, most overnight successes are 20 years in the making - this is to say, if are conscientious and tenacious in paying attention to the small things in life while striving for that breakthrough point in the future, you will more than likely experience success, and at the very least you will never be bored with life.
As I said if any of this sounds like nonsense to you, disregard it completely. But if you have any Q’s, feel free to email me: tyro.bwc@gmail.com.
Well put Benn (interesting name you have there, the double ‘n’ I mean), I think you nailed some very good points about discovering your passions and unmeasurable potential. You obviously follow the journey Erwin is on, have you considered the internship?
I’d like to follow-up just a little bit on something Benn said about Becky Age 21s’ post. He pointed out that Becky Age 21 actually did have a dream and that was to help others achieve their own dreams.
I couldn’t help but chuckle when I read that in your post Becky Age 21 because I think you may have unwittingly answered one of your own questions. Wanting to help ‘others realise their dreams’ is a very valid dream in itself, Erwin and his crew may throw that phrase around quite a bit but that doesn’t make it the default thing everyone does if they can’t think of anything else. It certainly isn’t the dream everyone has and for most of us its hard enough to get our heads around our own dreams, let alone other peoples. I’d be really interested in hearing about what starts happening in your life once you start to discover how it is you can draw the dreams out of other people. Maybe then you can help me discover mine ;)
Here’s a couple of things I’ve found really helpful in equipping myself to realise my dreams (I’m still very much a work in progress – watch this space!). Surround yourself with the kind of people who are already deep in their purpose or who are busy with discovering what that is. These are the best kind of people to catch the dream-bug from and you can bet your first-born on the fact they’ll be more than willing to share it with you. Secondly, if you’re feeling like you’re doing nothing then put yourself in Gods way and start doing the next thing you come across. You might just find its the very dream God had in store for you all along, and if not, you can always use it as the platform to launch yourself closer to what it actually might be.
The bible teaches us that there is a season for bearing fruit. Creation teaches us that flowers are not the fruit. The fruit comes after the blossom withers and dies. I don’t know whether its fun being a blossom or fun being fruit but I do know its not about us, its about Jesus. I was very much a weed when I was 21. Be very thankful you are more than likely a blossom and rejoice at being in the season God has you in. Oh, and read or listen to Paris Reidhead’s sermon “10 Shekels and a shirt”. You can find it searching with Google.
Speaking of creation metaphors and the lessons take from them, I have always been fond of the concept of a tree’s root structure and how, generally speaking, it is absolutely vital that a tree develop a system and network of roots embedded in the ground to ensure long-term health and growth.
In life, this system of roots is the foundation of values and beliefs we shape our lives around. Our ‘roots’ are also the character attributes we choose to develop and embody for ourselves, and at in least in my case, that character to be emulated is that of Jesus.
The relationships we make and choose to sustain are like the soil in which we would choose to plant a tree. A soil that is rich in the right composition nutrients and minerals will help the tree develop strength and robustness. This robustness is essential if the tree is to stand against the wind (wink :p).
I specifically say ‘the right composition’, because what might seem like good quality soil might not be the right type for the particular plant you are trying to grow. Just as incorrect ‘good soil’ will deprive the tree of what it needs, advice offered to you throughout your life may make good sense and seem helpful but not all of it will actually align with the intention of ones life; this is to say not all good advice will be appropriate for you.
The point of a tree is not for it to stand alone. It is a small aspect of a much grander ecosystem where the synergies and relationship not only make life possible and create an environment worth living in (a noble purpose indeed), but also to help demonstrate the splendour and intricacies of God and His nature.
So where am I going with this? Good question, but I do have a point (I think). “Life is like a box of chocolaâ€â€¦just kidding. Bearing fruit is important and the ability to do so indicates that the functional elements of a tree are working properly. But to create fruit that is a succulent, mouth-watering, full-of-flavour, melt-in-your-month experience, as well as delivering essential vitamins and antioxidants, the tree must be borne from an environment which has nurtured and provide life giving sustenance in harmony with the needs of the tree.
Becky 21, and for whoever else really, I hope you receive the right insights and advice for others that will aid you in maximising the life God would want you to experience.
I’d like to say one thing concerning the conversation Anonymous started about the validity of the notion that the bible should be the only source necessary when dealing with people who don’t follow Jesus (all the way back at post number 5).
I know this has been debated to death in this thread and I’m thankful for that but I think the story (John Gordon’s) Erwin shared in his latest conversation with the people of Mosaic is a shining example of how everything in life (whether its man-man or not) can be and should be used in expressing the love of Jesus. More than that it seems the very land we live on aches to express its love for God, regardless of how we feel about it.
Why is God so unreasonably tough on Divorce ??
Christ says that a man can not divorce his wife unless his wife committs adultery. The same rule applies to wives divorcing their husbands.
This rule appears too strict because if God wants us to be happy then He should let us seek a marriage with someone else who will make us happier ??
Sometimes people grow apart; sometimes there is spousal abuse; sometimes one spouse changes for the worse, emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc.
Did not Christ forgive the Woman taken in adultery and brought before him for judgment ??
Many of my friends come from divorced parents; but they seem to be OK. Some of my friends have gotten divorced but they appear to be OK.
Isn’t the “pursuit of happiness” guaranteed to us in the U.S. Constitution ??
I thought that Christ forgave the sinful woman who came to him and washed his feet with her hair and poured valuable perfume upon his feet; all in front of a Phairisee ??
Secondly, why does the Church overly stress the importance of the Family Unit ?? That is a married Heterosexual couple with children. In many countries in Europe, it is common to find young unmarried couples with children; in the U.S. itself, many families are single parent families where one spouse is absent. How come the Pope and many Protestant church leaders lecture us so much on the family unit ?? I know that some people say Christ’s first miracle was at a wedding in Cana but that was 2000 years ago. People are now having test tube babies and soon there will be designer babies; who knows within a few years there may be human cloning.
I have a teenage daughter who has been dating a guy who was brought up as a jehovahs witness. In the beginning he use to try to get us to study with them invited us to a convention and to what they call kingdom hall but we refused everytime.
(In the beginning I’ve tried to get my daughter to break up with him (including others have tried) and just keep him as a friend but she refuses eachtime)
Later on his elders at the kingdom hall gave him what they call the opportunity to choose to either continue going to church or break up with my daughter he chose to leave his church because he says he really loves her. (They managed to do it in what they call a concerned way)
What has really been bothering me though is the fact that he thinks he is going to die for making this decision. He thinks that God is going to or already has turned his back on him. No matter how many times I’ve tried to reassure him, shared the bible with him, tried to bring people in his presence who might be able to help he continues to dismiss everything even going to church with us This guy is even afraid to walk in a christian bookstore. He makes excuses. I’ve tried to reassure him that no one is gonna make him do something he doesnt wanna do. I’ve tried to stay real understanding with him but I can definitely say it has been a challenge. I feel that I should be doing so much more (besides prayer) what do you think ?
Hey Skeptic No. 53
I just want to mention something about your great question. I grew up surrounded by divorce so I do know a bit about it but I can’t imagine what it’s like to feel trapped in a loveless relationship. But I think the reason God holding high standards for it is because it’s purely an issue of faith and love. When someone is divorcing they do not believe God is powerful enough to restore you, your spouse and the marriage. “What God has joined together, let no man seperate” Jesus says. Meaning, when another human– a created being– says- “No God, I hold the power to legally seperate what you have made and put togther”, it is US saying- “God, I don’t think you’re big enough, wise enough or strong enough to heal this.” A direct insult to Gods power, love for you as a couple, and love for you as an individual. God also knows the bigger picture. It is incredibly foolish to think divorce only affects the couple at that time and not the individual later through life or more so the children. I am in my mid thirties and just now finally feeling like I can climb out of how my parents divorce after “marrying the wrong person” has shaped my views and relationships and self esteme. When you say you’re getting a divorce you are telling God himself that you don’t believe in His power– and that is the greatest insult. Yes there is grace… but God is saying to you–”I am strong enough to heal you and your wife and your marriage, but you have to want it. FIGHT for you marriage– fight for her– get rid of the scoreboard and forgive- the way I am constantly forgiving you. Stop taking from one another and give no matter how you are treated. And never ever allow a man I created to tell me that I don’t have the power or authority to bind you together.” I honestly believe that Divorce is not a matter of seperation but a lack of faith in God, his power and you giving up on love. God IS love. Thanks for raising the question, I hope Erwin can shed some light on it and your other questions.
And as for all the Mosaic “distractions” and the Word of God standing alone stuff throughout the posts—What ever happened to just having a gift and the church gives you a platform to use it? Is that wrong? And it upsets me that people assume that we DONT use scripture. Have you listened to a message lately? We’ve never ever ever changed or took away from the true story,- we just give it HD color and dolby surround sound. Thanks.
It has always troubled me about God’s commandmant, Christ’s commandment to forgive the guilty, the oppressors of this world. There is so much injustice and oppression in this world. You really have to stand up for your rights, and the rights of your relatives and the rights of your friends. There are so many jerks and people that will take advantage of you if you allow them an inch they will take a yard.
Why does Christ tell us to turn the other cheek; to carry the Roman soldier’s backpack another mile ; to forgive seven times seventy times ?? It really does not make any sense especially in countries where they will kill or torture you for being a Christian.
This world is a world gone mad with violence, oppression and injustice. Muslims kill Christians, Christians kill Muslims, Muslims kill Jews, Hindus kill Muslims, blacks attack Latinos, whites attack blacks, gangs fight gangs, the police fight gangs, etc., etc.
This world is run on justice and getting your pound of flesh whether it be on the streets of South Central or East L.A. or in the courtroom with divorce lawyers and corporate lawyers or on the streets of Wall STreet.
What that lunatic did to those 5 innocent Amish schoolgirls demands justice doesn’t it ?? It is really crazy that those Amish forgive that evil man for doing what he did.
How can Christ ask us to do such a hard thing and such an abnormal thing ?? You always see those people celebrating outside the prison when they execute someone heinous on Death Row; it seems as though that is the human condition to want justice and revenge………
The U.S. has more people in prison per capita than any other nation on Earth; even the dictatorships in Third World nations do not have a Prison-Industrial Complex like us Americans do; we have so many prisoners in California that we need to house them in other states. The public demands justice and the 3-Strikes law. No politician gets elected demanding forgiveness. Things have not really changed in two thousand years. The Romans demanded justice and crucified thieves and other undesirables and so do we.
How can you forgive a friend for cheating you in business; how can you forgive a woman for being unfaithful to you; how can you forgive people who committ war crimes; how can you forgive your parent or sibling for not looking out for you ??
How does God keep track of all of our prayers ?? There are so many people in the world; millions; billions of people.
Look at all the people driving on the freeway just in one spot. There must be hundreds if not thousands of those people alone praying with worries and anxieties; sick relatives, a death in the family killing them with sorrow, a strained friendship with an old friend; a broken romantic relationship or marriage; financial problems, health problems, job problems, school problems, etc.
How does God keep track of all these desperate prayers ?? Some would ask does God keep track of all these prayers or just the important ones ??
Others would ask: does God only hear the prayers of Christians ??
Does the Creator of Heaven and Earth who created the Universe out of nothingness hear the prayers of Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhists, animists ??
Does God who they say knows when a sparrow falls, hear the prayers of only the righteous ??
Does he hear the prayers of biker gang members, corrupt politicians, unethical businessmen, the greedy, the profane, adulterers, condemned killers, thieves, robbers, embezzelers, crooked lawyers, drug dealers ??
Does the Creator hear the prayers of the children dying of famine, disease; the soldiers dying on the battlefield, those lonely and without hope like runaway teenagers living on the street; street gang members without a family, the homeless ??
Why has Christ waited so long to return ?? It has been 2000 years and we still wait for His Second Coming ??
There is so much suffering, loneliness, injustice, pain on this Planet….
On the street I saw a girl cold and shivering in a thin dress, with little hope of a decent meal.
I became angry and said to God: WHY did you permit this ? WHY don’t you do something about it??
For a while God said nothing.
That night He replied quite suddenly: “I certainly did something about it. I made you.”
In response to the discussion of media, drama, etc in presenting the gospel… I think we should depend on the word to motivate us to act. The Apostle Paul was clear in how far he would go to share the Gospel in 1 Cor 9:19-23…
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Paul said he would become all things to all me so that by all possible means he might save some. Paul had a passion for the lost and preached the Gospel without the benefit of the NT text. Shouldn’t we us the Word and every possible means (short of sin) to reach the lost? Drama, video, etc… if standing on your head better communicates the Gospel for someone, by all means stand on your head. As a believer, do whatever God puts on your heart to glorify Him and redeem the lost to Him
“Why does Christ tell us to turn the other cheekâ€
Hey Barrabas, let me offer a little insight to this tiny part of your post (sorry I can’t answer anything else you’ve written!). Back in the day if someone wanted to disrespect you they would slap you in the face with the back of their [right] hand to your [left] cheek. On the other hand, if someone wanted to great you in friendship and love they would pat your right check with the palm of their right hand.
So turning the other cheek (i.e. offering your right cheek after someone slapped you) meant you were giving the person who wronged you the chance to make amends…if they didn’t, their behaviour was no longer your responsibility and further action could be taken (by the appropriate people or God depending on what the situation was).
So the lesson for us I guess is that we’re to treat the injustices we go through as an opportunity to show the grace and love of Jesus by the way we respond during those times.
Dear Friends:
With respect to comment #50 by Rico and other comments, I think that the most important thing is not the means, the props or the media by which the Good News is conveyed but the most vital thing is that there is someone, in fact, preaching and bringing the Good News and the Gospel, to the lost, the blind, the lonely and the broken-hearted of this world.
I must refer you all to Romans Chapter 10: 13-15 which reads as follows:
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!”
I think many questions in this series are very sincere, but it seems to highlight a very weak view of sin, particularly our own, since we have a log in our eye. For example, when Paul said “For me to live is Christ…” I have substituted Christ for other words such as “For me to live is being recognized, fishing for compliments, getting approval, being needed etc.” As C.S. Lewis would say those are second things, Christ is first thing! I think when we grasp and are humble that Christ paid the subtle, covert and overt sins, we can dance and bathe in His grace and glory. I think gratitude emerges and our heart is unleashed for His service.
Mike of Comment No. 53, raises an interesting question regarding sin.
How can God, a God of infinite Love, also be a God of such severe divine Judgment and exclude most of humanity from the Kingdom of Heaven (e.g. condemn most of Humanity to the punishment of an everlasting Hell) ??
How can a God of infinite Love, also create such a terrible place such as Hell and send so much of humanity to this Hell, described in some parts of the Bible as a huge garbage dump full of fire.
The New Testament clearly in many places sets forth a very harsh view of sin and in many places specifically states that committing certain sins will plainly exclude one from Heaven (this exclusion apparently will not only apply to non-followers of Christ but also to “Christians” who fall away and committ these sins also).
For example, at 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, the text states: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
In fact, the very last two chapters of the very last book of the Bible at Revelation 21:7-8 and at Revelation 22:14-15, specifically state that humans who committ certain sins will be excluded from Heaven and spend eternity in Hell.
“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates of the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”
Revelation 22: 14-15.
Is being a jehovahs witness really a cult? How can celebrating birthdays and holidays really be wrong? How can blood transfusions be wrong?
does anyone care?
“How can God, a God of infinite Love, also be a God of such severe divine Judgment and exclude most of humanity from the Kingdom of Heaven (e.g. condemn most of Humanity to the punishment of an everlasting Hell) ??â€
Erwin goes does a good job of tackling your question in one of his talk in this series. You should check it out if you haven’t already. From memory I think its called “Why is there Hellâ€
The MEANS by which the Message is conveyed, is what can be a bit convoluted at times. I think that’s what the whole argument/dialogue has been. Not the use of it. Keep using it, because different people will respond to different things.
But keep it in check. Meaning, make sure it’s relevant to the message, and that the package is foremost about JESUS and not what the people (artists) feel like conveying. Make sure to convey the WORD, foremost. The rest is just icing.
Wow, this is my first time on this site and I’m amazed at some of the converation I am reading. It sounds like a lot of people definitely shouldn’t be attending the Mosaic. The negative attitudes and narrow thinking about what God is able to use to reach seekers is saddening. I attend a seeker oriented church in Indiana and we use all types of drama, videos, and contemporary (dare I say it?…even some secular) music to reach people. We meet them where they are and with things they can relate to. We have boomed to over 700 in less than 2 years as a new church plant. Most of these people had given up on church or had really bad experiences where people were very judgmental in their thinking of what was right and wrong with what happened on Sunday mornings. I hear alot of those judgmental attitudes here. It makes my heart hurt that people think they understand black and white what God does and doesn’t do to reach people for His Kingdom. Unfortunately, it’s not until we go through tough times ourselves that we better understand the amazing grace of God and that we should extend that grace to others as well. Mosaic, I applaud what you are doing and thank you for being willing to think outside the box on how to reach your community out there. Way to be the light in a community that obviously needs some expanding on their understanding of who God is and how He reaches people. Keep on serving Him!
Jesus healed, raised the dead, he wept. He was part of the community. If we are fellowshipping with others (Kononia) then we can attend to peoples needs in physical way and in a trusting way. We can do this through art, music and dance. Then it’s as if the soil of the hearts of people is broken and open to receive the seeds of Truth as Jesus’ parable goes. It all goes back to Jesus who entered space and time (Incarnate Lord) and the relationship He demonstrates (Trinity). Awesome. Jesus is high compassion and high conviction - both. Kingdom focused, Tiv.
what do you think happens to babies’ spirits after they die? what about babies that aren’t born yet? how about people with mental disabilities?
my little cuzin died from cancer at the age of 3. he was baptized in the catholic church as an infant, but he never said the “prayer”. is this a topic erwin is going to address? i’ve heard of an age of accountability, is this b.s.? thanks for doing this series, it’s been the best thing i’ve heard in a church! good job keepin it real! peace.
If you’re not, you don’t know that the people here LOVE what’s going on. We are all about Jesus. And communicating Him to His people by different means.
All people are saying here is to make sure that the drama/video “comtemporary” stuff (as you called it) are always being checked against the word of God.
The argument is not about omitting it. No way. People need to hear it/see it in different ways.
Just make sure it’s Jesus’ truth at heart of it. Always.
For those who are struggling with the idea that Mosaic might not be fully honoring the solid, powerful truth of God’s word because they incorporate creative elements in presentations, take heart: It is not undermining in any way. I have been priviledged to hear Erwin McManus speak outside of Mosaic, and he is firmly committed to the full truth and power of God’s word.
I teach and read Koine Greek, the language in which the majority of the New Testament was composed. It is difficult to explain, but there is a huge difference between students who learn to translate and those who learn to think in Greek. Suffice it to say that putting the message of the New Testament into English involves a great deal of contextualiation. There are features of Greek verbs, for instance, which have no parallels in English at all–we simply can’t grasp the concept. But with the Holy Spirit’s help, people CAN understand the eternal truths of scripture in their own language.
Mosaic is multidimensional, and perhaps it would be helpful for you to view elements like video as serving the role of an alternate translation. It is a different language, and one that meets many people where they are. When I help my children learn the Bible, coloring pages and crafts are great tools. Video is the same.
In Acts 1 we are told to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. That means crossing cultural barriers as well as geographic ones. In 1 Corinthians 9:22 Paul says “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” [The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), 1 Co 9:22-23.]
I love Mosaic and am a huge fan of Erwin but in his talk about “Is God in Your Future”, he is totally off and misrepresents the view on Calvinism. Calvinism is NOT fatalism. I am a Southern Baptist that is not reformed, and have read much wonderful material on the reformation and Calvinism. There is a branch called hyper-Calvinism which is what I think Erwin is really speaking about, but Fatalism accepts what the Bible says about God’s sovereignty without acknowledging the verses about human responsibility and free agency. Much of the rest of contemporary Christianity does just the opposite — swallowing free agency without facing up to the sovereignty verses. Both approaches leave one with a truncated Bible and a distorted image of God. “True Calvinism is not fatalism. Calvinism believes in a personal God who has unmitigated sovereignty. Fatalism believes in impersonal fate. Calvinism celebrates (with the Bible) the purposefulness of life. Fatalism espouses meaninglessness. Calvinism sets hope on the future manifested glory of God. Fatalism looks forward to nothingness.” I hope he has a chance to thoroughly research and ask true Reformers, Calvinists etc on this issue. Since I listen to Erwin via podcast, I have noticed that he has taken pot shots at this particular branch of Christianity….this is the same problem I had when attending another congregation….friendly fire!
Dear Fran of Comment No. 55,
God does care very much about you and about your questions. God asks us to act in faith and through faith in God we can do the impossible.
Regarding your questions about the Jehovah’s Witnesses: The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, I must refer you to a good Christian book entitled:
“Fast Facts on False Teachings” by Ron Carlson and Ed Decker.
This fine text shows the follower of Christ how to defend the Christian faith and gives an analysis of other religions based on Bible Scripture. Chapter 8 of this book has an analysis and summary of the Jehovah’s Witnesses religion.
Christ himself warned us to be watchful and ready to defend our Christian faith against false religions and false teachers and those who do not teach from the Bible in St. Matthew 24: 3-5:
“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”
As to the comments in #61 and #62 and others regarding the mode of worship and the use of multimedia, drama, etc., I think that what is important to keep in mind is where our “heart of worship” is located.
The key issue is whether our heart of worship is for the glorification of God and expanding God’s Kingdom here on Earth; or is the heart of our worship to glorify ourselves and to glorify earthly things and things of this world ??
God the Creator of Heaven and Earth and all things, can see into our hearts.
God will save those who seek to glorify Him first above all things.
Scripture states that before Christ’s Second Coming, the environment on Earth will be like that of the days of Noah before the Great Flood; in those days people forgot God and sought to glorify themselves and glorify earthly things.
We must seek to avoid that fatal mistake and seek in all things to glorify God first, and Not to glorify ourselves above God and His Word.
I quote from St. Matthew 24: 35-41 as follows:
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the Flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
I am sure glad that Mosaic has a very humble and God-seeking environment among their artisans and leadership staff. it really does show in all that they do.
To John of Comment Number 65, your reply is appreciated and obviously made in good faith.
However, one must be careful to discern what is indeed the glorification of God when we come to worship God.
It is enough to be humble and God-seeking alone ?? Some would say that is good enough. Others would say that the worship of God in order to truly Glorify God must preach the Word of God and follow the Word of God.
I think that the Scripture from Hebrews 4:12-13 is enlightening here and it reads in pertinent part:
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with who we have to do.”
“For those who are struggling with the idea that Mosaic might not be fully honoring the solid, powerful truth of God’s word because they incorporate creative elements in presentations, take heart”…
In no way was anyone ever doubting that Mosaic is ATTEMPTING to honor God and His truth through the use of creative elements–
the issue here has been the CONTENT of said creative elements.
No one is saying a.) Mosaic is wrong to be using them or b.) Mosaic is not attempting to honor God. People seem to be saying…
make CERTAIN that you are honoring God’s TRUTH, his actual WORD (Scripture) in these elements.
Anyone who’s a regular Mosaic-ite can say that yes, the “meaning” is in the heart of the beholder (these elements are all open to interpretation).
But this isn’t just regular “art” we’re talking about. If we’re talking about saving lives by conveying the message of God in multi-faceted ways, then by all means, PLEASE be clear about the message of God when you communicate it.
It’s convoluted many times. Too messy. Too artsy just for the sake of being artsy.
It’s funny that Christians really have a hard time seeing the GOOD shining throught big-bad-scary elements of Mosaic. I am not a follower yet. But even I can see that hundreds of people are coming to Christ each year through Mosaic. Erwin uses TONS of scripture in his talks. Apparently they are meeting their goals. I don’t get why so many of you Christian argue over the dumbest things… are the elements glorifying God? Is there enough word?
…and you people wonder why people look at Christianity and walk away dazed and confused.
Both of your comments are well taken and there is some merit in both of them.
I guess what we are essentially dealing with here is the balance between: (1) The Church being “relevant to the culture”; and (2) The Church being true to its calling and true to the Word of God (Bible).
The debate over the balance being these two vital principles is heated and important to a lost and dying world.
Some would say that the Church’s most important duty is to be true to its calling, that is, to glorify God; and to be true to the Word of God.
Others would say that the Church’s most important duty to to be relevant to the culture, in a particular time and space in human history.
Some would say that the overstressing of being relevant to the culture has resulted in many mainline Protestant denominations being consumed and eaten up by secular culture and secular values to the point that the Church cannot be readily distinguished from the secular mainstream culture; and that such a “seeker-oriented strategy” has led to the demise, division and depopulation of once healthy, important church denominations such as the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Episcopolians, the American Baptists, and even many Roman Catholic dioceses all over the U.S.
In other words, some point to the statistical facts that the divorce rate in most Protestant churches is now somewhat higher than the general population for example.
Some cite Scripture that followers of Christ are separate themselves from the world and remember that they are but “aliens” and “pilgrims” on this Earth.
Others argue that the only way to rebuild the membership of depleted and aging Protestant and Catholic congregations is to be “seeker friendly” and relevant to the culture.
They cite Scripture that followers of Christ are to be the “salt of the earth” and that Christians are to go out and encounter the “Samaritan woman at the well” and to confront the “Demon possessed man”; to welcome the corrupt tax collector “Zaccheus” and break bread with him at his house; and to have compassion on the “sinful woman” who wiped Christ’s feet with her hair and poured perfume on Christ’s feet.
Such is the debate as we face the lonely, the despairing, the poor, the lost, the imprisoned, and the dying of this world. We must remind them that Christ is with them and with us.
“….All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” - which means, “God with us.”
Matthew 1:22-23
you think Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Episcopolians, the American Baptists are being as a whole relevant? I would say that the reason those statistics are so high is because they aren’t and there is a disconnect between faith and real life.
I think that you are both observant and insightful. As to John’s comment in #71, whenever there is a “disconnect between faith and real life” we can expect a “Falling Away” from the Word of God by the Church here on Earth.
In many places in the New Testament, God warns us of a predicted “Apostasy” or great “Falling Away” by the Church from the Word of God, in the Last Days.
2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4:
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, Except there
come a Falling Away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showeth himself that he is God.”
The Apostasy or Falling Away from God and God’s Word occurs whenever a Church’s leader(s) and/or a Church’s members oppose the teachings in the Bible
(God’s Word) and exalt themselves above God, that is put their own human/earthly priorities above God; and seek to put their own glory/success before the glorification of God.
The most common form of Apostasy is to twist/misinterpret Scripture from the Bible in order to fit one own’s human interpretation/goals in order to make oneself popular with the crowd or one’s teachings appealing to the crowd.
Christ’s teachings were not popular with the crowd and many of his followers abandoned him. Peter denied him three times. Thomas refused to believe until he felt the actual wounds in Christ’s hands and side. Judas betrayed Christ for thirty pieces of silver. However, St. Paul formerly Saul of Tarsus was faithful to the Word of God despite torture, beatings, threats, starvation, cold, shipwrecks, imprisonment, isolation and even to the point of death.
From cold (spiritually) New England… Erwin and the team are rockin’ the world. We went to Origins/Ethos this past May and got rocked. I’m a Mosaic Podcast addict.
About all of the comments about sticking to the simple power of the word; you’re missing the point. Erwin, Alex and clan get it in a very deep way. If we’re going to be living letters ourselves, we need to be released to communicate. Every generation has to own the gospel of Jesus Christ and it will only own the message if they are allowed to wrestle with it artistically and creatively and have that process honored by the body. Those “high school videos” are the struggling soul of tomorrows Kingdom.
I serve in New England. If you want a sneak peek into what a church that seeks to preserve, come to my town. You’ll find lots of churches that stopped preaching Jesus because they were too busy preserving. Creativity has never squelched the kingdom. I be willing to risk that error!
I wanted to ask this question but I missed out. I wanted to know why God allows us to move some where knowing that for the rest of our lives we would be miserable. Also why does God open a door to only slam it in our faces as we try and walk through it.
To: John of #74.
Have faith my brother. Have faith in the Lord and fear the Lord. Read Psalm 103 “A Psalm of David”.
David was persecuted as his enemies sought to kill him and he was hunted down like an animal.
David had faith in the Lord.
Here is part of Psalm 103:
“Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with loving-kindness and tender mercies …..”
My brother, remember the times and instances where the Lord has shown you loving-kindness and tender mercies; do not dwell upon your trials and troubles. If David did that, he would have given up but instead David had faith in God remembering the blessings and mercy of God upon him in the past.
Many a follower of Christ has lost his faith because he thought his fervent prayer to God for mounted Cavalry to rescue him was denied. These followers should have remembered the Cross on Calvary where Jesus died. Christ has already shown his infinite love for us by dying for all of us and our sins at Calvary. Have faith my brother in the tender mercies of God.
The opening message of ‘The Art of Life’ series was absolutely amazing. Thank you David for a sermon I’ve been waiting my whole life to hear. Often I’ll hear a speaker other than Erwin and think what a great job they did, but feel they just don’t compare with him. I know this unfair, but I can’ help it. Not so with David’s message. I realise that a huge amount of time and effort was put into that message by a number of people, but I’m so glad: I encountered God in a way so rich and profound as a result.
It’s not “dumb” to be concerned about whether or not the name of Jesus is being represented TRUTHfully. Yes, many people come to Christ at our church– but that is the work of the Holy Spirit. He uses us in spite of ourselves at times. God is good.
Tom, creativity IS essential. But not creativity just for the sake of being “creative.” It is essential to be mindful of the TRUTH of the Word in the midst of these elements.
Those churches that you reference, who stopped teaching the name of Jesus in their efforts to “preserve”– that is the antithesis of what our aim should be.
We should aim to teach MORE of the name of Jesus (thus “preserving” His name in His church)– while being “creative.”
The two must co-exist.
No one at all has argued here the use of said elements.
The “argument” is simple: please make sure not to lesson Jesus’ time in the spotlight on Sunday– for the sake of presenting a “cool” element. This is how it’s coming across to many out there.
The comments of Cam and Nalg
of #76 and #77 are both informative.
One must worship God for his infinite creativity.
“The love of God is creative to infinity.”
St. Vincent de Paul.
We must recognize that our world and our nation though does not respect the creativity of God. An estimated 125 million orphan children live now on Planet Earth without fathers, mothers or families to love them. In Brazil alone, there are an estimated 7 to 8 million orphan children who live in the streets. In Moscow, orphans live in the subways and sewers.
In our own nation, orphans live in foster care homes or on the street.
One of the greatest creations of God, human babies and children abandoned and neglected.
In the U.S. alone, an estimated 25 million babies have been aborted in the past 20 or so years.
One of the greatest creations of God, a human child destroyed.
The followers of Christ were at the forefront of great human rights causes from the abolition of slavery in the U.S. before and during the Civil War; to the civil rights movement in the Southern U.S. during the 1960’s with Rev. Martin Luther King.
I think there is a call right now,
to the followers of Christ to be creative in solving this nationwide and worldwide problem of orphan children and neglect of babies and children.
Creativity is very important in showing the love of God and communicating the love of God to a world and a nation
increasingly dominated by the values of the “culture of death”.
We must be creative but we must also remain faithful to the essentials of the Christian faith.
Without the essentials and fundamentals of the Christian faith, even the most creative and beautiful house will collapse when a flood comes.
See Luke 6:46-49.
We must remember the words of warning from Jesus himself: “Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth ?”
Luke 18:8
reading a good book by an author named Sider. called Evangelism vs. social action ..
about being like Jesus and preaching, teaching and healing. balancing evangelism with social action..it’s very good. God Bless.
Praise the Lord for his creativity and his compassion.
God created the universe and heaven and earth out of nothingness. Wow what an ultimate artist!!
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness…..”
Genesis 1:1-4
The Gospel in the Book of John explains that God sent Light in the form of Christ to Earth in order to save Humanity from
Aug 8th, 2006 at 10:38 am
Hello,
How can I receive info on these sessions (video, audio, notes)?
Thanks,
Aug 8th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
check out mosaic video podcasts…the link is found on right side of the home page.
Aug 19th, 2006 at 12:13 am
HI
Would also like to know how I can receive these sessions.
Regards
Aug 20th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
Eric,
Great talk on Joshua. Really encouraging, down to earth, humble.
Thanks,
David
Aug 22nd, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Great talk this past Sunday… The video however, “Superman’s Agent,” was frankly quite useless and very high school ministry. FYI… The Word can stand on its own and doesn’t need a video that is distracting.
Aug 28th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Glad you were able to recieve a great message from us that inspired you, Anonymous.
Aug 28th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Let me re-phrase that– Glad you were able to recieve a message from God that inspired you.
Aug 29th, 2006 at 8:04 am
Dear Anonymous,
Glad you enjoyed the talk. Sorry you didn’t like the video. There are many who come with barriers to hearing about God. We have discovered that laughter at times can help make someone more open to hearing about Jesus. When you see something you don’t like, know there are many others who needed that experience to prepare their hearts for the challenging words to come. Pray for them in those moments you find yourself becoming critical.
We free people to serve using their talents and creativity, some of whom are actors or filmmakers. Sunday mornings are just one small part of who we are as a community. On that day alone, there are people serving in the parking lot, cleaning the toilets, changing diapers, helping in tech, and so on. The speaker is one part of the entire community. Not all gifts look the same, but all of us are a part of sharing the message of God’s love and helping people connect to Jesus.
We use this approach as a direct application of the Word of God which challenges us to use the gifts we have received (Romans 12). We are so grateful for those who serve as artisans, kids’ workers, technicians, small group leaders, greeters, and so on. Each person serving on Sundays and throughout the week is a blessing to us and adds their own personality to their ministry.
If I can help more in the future, please contact me directly. I would be happy to share with you more why we do what we do in hopes of helping you find your place to serve with us.
Blessings,
Eric
Navigator, Mosaic
eric@mosaic.org
Aug 29th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Eric,
Just wanted to jump on the encouragement bandwagon as Sunday was wonderful, humble, and so energizing. You are so right as well about the gifts we are given, and using them to reach people of different sizes, races, and mindsets, which in turn require differing modes of connection. I just started attending Mosaic, and while some performances don’t speak to me directly, I believe they are still of great benefit to someone…It’s wonderful to see a church use so many talents and give the people who possess them a chance to serve God. I am so grateful to have found this church and look forward to getting more involved :)
Aug 29th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Im not sure if this is where we ask for life’s toughest questions but here it goes. I have been reading a lot in the book of Romans and in the book of James, and Hebrews 11 about faith. Now I see the amazing acts of faith so many great people of the bible have had, and how the book of James tells us to have hope and persevere through trials and to not let your faith be shaken. Now in many cases such as a illness or a unsaved loved ones, or in hopes for a ministry people tell you to keep your faith, not to lose hope and believe in the Lord that it is going to happen, cause if it is of God and your heart is in the right place then God will honor those request to work them out for his Glory. But what about when we go through a break-up or divorce. I have just experienced a break up after 6 years of being with the same person. I still think he is amazing although I am hurt. I didn’t do anything wrong and really neither did he. We had a pure God centered relationship and we are both worship leaders and youth leaders at our church. We got along great and at the time we felt we knew that God had us together for good and for an amazing plan and purpose. He broke up with me because he said he needed to complete his self with the Lord and not let anything distract that and he needed to sacrifice our relationship to let God completely fill him. I sadly but willingly agreed and didn’t even put up a fight, I figured if it is a Godly reason why should I try to fight with God, im going to lose Duh! It’s been two months now and a lot has changed we have both grown so much in the Lord seperately, but just recently he told me in what most people would say a “a mean way” that he wanted nothing to do with me anymore and that he doesn’t see me at all in his future and I need to accept that and stop thinking that he is the one for me. Did I mention that even up to this point I have done nothing to this boy to hurt him or distract him in this time. But I still have faith in us, I still think this is going to be just a time in the present, but I’ve seen vision with this person and no one else. I mean six years I wasn’t playing around it wasn’t a game to me. These visions and these hopes have not left although my heart is broken. Most people tell me to not keep these hopes to let go of them and forget the vision that I had. But in every other case that christians go through they tell us not to lose hope or faith in those visions but the incident that involves love your hope and faith is told to be turned off because one person just doesn’t see it. Why is this?? Why is it that in relationships you can’t hold onto a vision or a hope or the faith that you had in it for so long. When someone falls you don’t just lose the vision you had for your friend or loved one you belive in that vision and that it will come to pass in God’s timing. Is it wrong for me to keep believing in this relationship. Im mean Abraham and sara had no way of believing they could bear a child it seemed impossible but they did. Why can’t I take this situation that looks impossible and believe in God for it? This is a long summary of my question and my situation but I hope with Prayer and some thought I can get a good answer. Thank you so much and I will pray for whoever it is that will be reading this.
Sep 8th, 2006 at 6:32 am
Hi eric waz up?
i agree with that person about the video.
I want to encourge and the leadership to not to be ashamed of teaching the pure word of God.Beacause the word alone is powerful enough Romans says that. thanks God bless
Sep 12th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
What a misfortune… I just wrote a very long post only to hit a wrong key and have it disappear.
I have not yet attended Mosaic, but am interested in doing so. One thing that is now holding me back, after reading these comments, is that material other than God’s Holy and Perfect Word is used as supplementation for it! My question is… if God’s word is perfect, why does it need supplemental videos? God says Himself that He will harden whom He chooses (Romans 9:18). If we needed more than just His word to bring people to Christ, He would have given us supplemental videos.
I would, as well, encourage the leadership to see the power of God’s word by itself! I have seen the most unlikely people transformed by the word alone (myself included) and would love to attend. I left the first church I went to because they felt that things such as books and videos (man-made things) were going to transform lives, and I rarely saw the fruit of it (new believers). The second church I went to based everything entirely on the word of God, and our congregation grew from 10 people to 500 in 4 years, a large percentage of these being new followers of Christ.
Just some things for the leadership to think about. I would love to show up this Sunday to see what Mosaic is about, but sticking around may hang largely on this.
Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Hello.
Just within the past couple of weeks, I have been interacting with some non-believers”( a good friend and her mother-in-law), and let me offer this up to show what is on the hearts of seeking non-believers:
*My friend is seeking,and it is evident by the fact that she asks lots of questions at times. She did not really have a religious upbringing, is now married to a Catholic man and by default will now baptize her baby in that faith even though she says she has no “religion”, and really does not know much about the word of God. WHAT IMPACTS HER THE MOST is seeing genuineness in people. Seeing the fruit in their life and if they claim they follow Jesus, HE then earns more credibility in her mind. Because let’s face it– we ARE representing the name of Jesus out there in the world. So RELATIONSHIPS in a church would be what transform her heart. Maybe a video or two would soften it up, but it is the transforming word of God that will shape her heart anew. Not an overload of performances.
*Her mother-in-law was married to a very devout Christian (in terms of reading the word often, going to church faithfully, etc.)– but he left her and her children and has hardly been a part of their lives. She asks, how can a person who claims to love Jesus do such a thing? She is now experimenting… visiting different Christian churches… and she is most affected, again, by real relationships with people who bear good fruit in the name of Christ. She is suspicious of showiness. And will be most transformed by people investing in her life.
So Mosaic should put a lot of eggs in the “Relating to People One-on-One” basket, and that is how non-believing hearts will be transformed. Have several events on a weekly basis and mid-week, too, to reach out to people to answer their questions. Maybe a coffee talk mid-week, a brand new believer’s class, a picnic with food right after the service each week. THIS will serve the purpose that I feel Mosaic is trying to accomplish with all of the glitz and glam stuff (drama, mini-movies, etc.). The heart of the work will be achieved not through this, though, but through good ol’ one-on-one relationships.
Sep 14th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Many questions plague both believers and non-believers alike:
(1) why do the seemingly innocent die horrible, random and untimely deaths: (e.g. young college graduate out on a morning jog run over and killed by a hit and run driver who is never caught; a young mother and wife suffers and dies from cancer; a young child struck with a terrible fatal disease; middle-aged husband and father killed on a business flight by hijackers who run his plane into the ground killing all passengers, crew and hijackers aboard; promising teenager killed in a drive-by shooting by gang members)
(2) why the glaring disparity of wealth and poverty in the world: (millions upon millions dying each year of famine and contaminated water and pestilence; over one billion humans lack access to clean water as we speak; billions living in urban slums in the 3rd world while billions in the First World [capitalistic industrialized nations] live in a seeming utopia of materialism, hedonism, wealth, etc. engorging themselves on mindless entertainment, pornography, drugs, sports, etc like the Romans in the Coliseums of the ancient Roman empire)
Sep 14th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
In reply to SE (and possibly others who may question the heart of Mosaic),
I couldn’t really tell whether or not you have attended Mosaic from the comment you left. But, I’d love to share with you the experiences I’ve had since my first visit to Mosaic 1 year ago, to the present.
I’ve been around churches since birth. Raised, thankfully, in a Christian environment and surrounded by believers my entire life. Grant it, I’ve met very genuine believers (people who have changed my life) outside of Mosaic, BUT I’ve never been surrounded by a whole community that desires nothing more than to share the love of Christ with others through nothing more/or less than RELATIONSHIPS as I have found in Mosaic.
I will admit though, having moved to L.A. from the mid-west, at first glance I was quick to judge the heart and true intension of Mosaic. Their “language” was different, their “attitudes” seemed odd, and their “spiritualism” wasn’t apparent enough… At least, that’s what I thought. You see, at first, it was me that was jumping to assumptions and forgetting relationships. I quickly believed that there were no real followers of Christ, and that it was all a big show. Thankfully, though, one thing that Mosaic does very well is create a comfortable environment for questions to be asked and answered. Being the outspoken person that I am, I expressed my concerns right away, and quickly and rightfully so was encouraged to begin to create relationships within the community. And, so I did.
I met people like Dana, the internship director, who taught me to “LOVE ON PEOPLE” when I would have much rather ignored them… or Julia, who challenges me to forget vanity, and serve the underpriviledged… or Elieen, who created Illuminate (a free arts camp for children in East LA) and allowed me to serve alongside countless other Mosaic members for 2 weeks in July volunteering our time and pouring out our hearts creating relationships with children, parents, and other churches in that community… There is also Dave, who works with College students attending FIDM in downtown L.A, who attended a creativity retreat (although he HATED creativity growing up) just so that he could RELATE to the students when he was back doing his ministry. In all honesty, there are countless individuals I could go on and on about.
I guess what I’m trying to share is that Mosaic is a community FULL of God’s love and grace, it is a community chasing after the heart of God, and it is a community excersing all possible means of sharing the message of Christ to a world lost without him. Our hearts burn with desire to turn the eyes of our society toward Him who loves us.
Please, do not doubt the validity on which Mosaic is founded… it is Relationship to God, and Relationship to people.
Much love!
Cynthia
MOSAIC:
Beauty beyond appearances. A place that calls me closer to my creator. Love personified. Warm. Safe. Teaching me the heart of Christ. Opening my eyes to the heart of humanity. Challenging me to live beyond myself. Pieces… peace… art… prophetic art. Inspiring me to become who God has created me to be. Seeking, searching, finding, finally understanding. Alone, isolated… introduced, welcomed, supported, HOME. Love personified.
Sep 14th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Endless questions torment both the thinking men and women of faith as well as persons not of the Christian faith:
(1) why are the followers of the Christian faith tortured and killed throughout the globe while millions of other Christians ignore their plight and the Almighty also seemingly ignores them also (1.5 million men, women and children killed in the Southern Sudan by the northern Sudanese military over the last 20 years, victims mostly Christians and animists; hundreds of thousand of Korean Christians being tortured and worked to death in North Korean concentration camps now; hundreds of thousands of Christians imprisoned in Communist Chinese prisons and re-education camps along with millions of other prisoners such as free speech advocates and Falon Gong followers; thousands of Indonesian Christians killed, imprisoned, sexually assaulted in Indonesia over the past 10 years by Muslim mobs or Muslim militias, etc.;
(2) why the endless genocides throughout history particularly in the 20th Century and the early 21st Century in this world;
(estimated 12 million killed by Nazis in concentration camps; 1.5 million Armenians killed by Ottoman Turks; millions executed by Stalin; millions executed by Mao-tse Tung; estimated 20 to 30 million Chinese civilains killed by Japanese imperial military forces during WWII, including about 350,000 civilains and disarmed Chinese soldiers in one city alone, City of Nanking; about one million dead in Rwanda from genocide; close to 3 million killed in orgy of violence by Khmer Rhouge in Cambodia; one million Vietnamese civilains dead in Vietnam War in 1970’s alone; about one million Korean civilains killed during Korean War; one million American Indians killed by plague, war or starvation during Indian Wars in the U.S.;
an estimated mind-boggling 175 million or more humans deliberately extinguished by politically motivated carnage during the 20th Century alone by governments of the world’s nations via war or genocide according to to former U.S. National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzenzinski’s book
“Out of Control”
Sep 14th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Critics of the Christian faith have called it the opium of the masses; a blind faith designed to numb the masses from revolting against oppression, discrmination, suffering, mistreatment, etc. while some believers have called to the road to heaven hard to find and narrow, seemingly saying that salvation is not a free, easy movie pass but a difficult journey, a hard road paved with suffering, doubt and a hard faith that one must hold tight in one’s hands lest the Evil One tear it from one’s breast with the cares of this fallen world.
(1) why are so many charlatan church leaders and cult leaders in the U.S. and all over the globe allowed to misuse the Christian faith to profit themselves financially and mislead so many from the true Word;
(2) why the apparently random disasters killing so many and causing so much untold suffering in the last 5 to 10 years on earth (e.g. 2003 earthquake leveling the City of Bam in Iran killing over 50,000 and destroying a city of 300,000; the 2005 Pakistan earthquake killing over 70,000 and leaving over one million homeless; the 2004 South Asian Tsunami killing over 200,000 persons and leaving millions homeless and destitute; the Gulf Coast hurricanes of 2005 in the southeastern U.S. including Katrina which killed over one thousand and left hundreds of thousands homeless; the mudslides and floods in Central America of the last several years which killed thousands and left hundreds of thousands homeless;
(3) why the seemingly blind indifference to the value of life in the last few years all over the globe from the cruel war in Chechyna which has caused tens of thousands of deaths and wholesale destruction of that Muslim nation by Russian military forces; to the war in the Congo (over 5 million dead from civil war, and war induced famine/disease over the last 5 years) to the wars in the Balkans (former Yugoslavia) where tens of thousands were slaughtered both Christian, and Muslim, Serb, Croatian etc. to the estimated 25 million American babies forever lost to abortions in the U.S. over the last 20 years??
Sep 14th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
The recent comments on the use of somethig other than God’s Word in the services at Mosaic seems to me to show a total lack of understanding about God. Standing on God’s Word is not just about speaking a message on Sunday, it is a totally holistic way of living life. Any understanding of God supports to idea that we are made in His image, therefore, we are creative beings and some of us are especially gifted creatively. To not use these gifts in His service would be to fall short of the mission he has called us all to. That is to reach an unbelieving world with a message of hope.
In Acts 17 we read abgout Paul developing a strategy to reach the unbelievers. He used the very idols that the Greeks worshipped as a means to explain the message of Christ. If it’s good enough for Paul to use props in her mesages I think it’s ok for us to as well.
On a final note. It was attending a church that encouraged me to use my media skills in order to enhance sewrvices that brought me to the place where I became a fully devoted follwer of Christ. Now 16 years later I am leading a community of faith and still using media in my talks.
Sep 14th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Hello, Cynthia.
I do attend Mosaic, and have been blessed tremendously to form wonderful relationships there– to truly encounter Jesus there– and to yearn to do His work. I never doubt the “validity” of the church, as you said.
I am merely saying: do not assume that just because a person is a “non-believer” that he or she is in need of anything EXTRA beyond the word of God– and that he/she somehow needs some special prepping for it. The word says that where God has begun a work, He will bring it to completion. Sometimes we can get in God’s way, truth be told.
NEVER underestimate the power that a one-on-one relationship holds. THAT is where the transforming work is done. And THAT is what needs to be most evident each and every Sunday.
Blessings!
Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:39 am
In response to Cliff’s comments:
Cliff, I totally agree with you. I myself am a very creative person and I serve God with my giftings. But what I was referring to was something different altogether:
Some people will come to know God by exploring their God-given giftings. This is the way we were designed. We serve Him whether it’s through dance or sweeping floors or changing poopy diapers in the nursery.
I was merely saying: during Sunday church services, a church should never feel that the word of God is not sufficient to stand on its own and penetrate into the hearts of non-believers. We cannot assume that just because I am a creative person and you are as well (in the “performing or visual arts” sense) that most or many non-believers will respond to this during the services.
Getting back to my original point, some if not many non-believers can be turned off by the showiness. This is what I meant by saying, sometimes we can get in God’s way. By allowing people to serve within their area of giftings (allowing so many performances of so many different kinds), in effect we sometimes are serving primarily the performers themselves and not the body as a whole. In other words, it can be a selfish thing (”I’m creative. I love God. Therefore, I will serve God with my giftings and this will enable non-believers to be more receptive to the word of God.”) NOTHING can be more powerful than the word of God. Like the comment from way back when from “Anonymous”, the word of God can STAND ON ITS OWN.
So yes, keep serving God with your giftings and I will do the same, and let’s keep on inviting our non-believing friends to do the same– and some will truly come to know God as a result.
But let’s not confuse the 2 issues:
*A performer wanting to serve God with his giftings.
*Thinking that a whole group of non-believers will be in need of seeing these giftings IN ADDITION to the WORD– in order to come to know God.
And my original question for this series:
How can a person who claims to love God hurt another person so profoundly? (The woman whose ex-husband was a “devout Christian” and then he ends up abandoning the family and is STILL active in church).
What do we say to people in instances such as these?
Blessings!
Sep 15th, 2006 at 7:35 pm
Hey Cliff, from another Cliff, keep being Cliff.
Cliff, out.
Sep 16th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
I’ve only attended one Mosaic service (at the Mayan) this past spring break when my wife and I vacationed in California. It didn’t seem overly showy to me. I was glad to see various creative arts being used, including video, music, lights, etc. And I haven’t heard anyone from Mosaic saying that creative arts are *required* in order for someone to enter into a relationship with God… but they sure do help! When we see that all of life, including the creative side, can be lived in relationship to God, it helps us see following Jesus Christ as the holistic, life-altering course of action that it is.
Keep up the good work, Mosaic! Present the Word of God in as many ways as you can: oral, visual, written, interpersonal, etc!
Sep 16th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Hi All,
Wow, this message board has got some interesting conversations going. I have been watching, and thought, why not add my two cents?
As far as the “using our gifts” vs “needing those giftings in addition to the word of God”….here’s a thought. I think we may be trying to make this a black and white issue, when it isn’t. As an attender/volunteer staff at Mosaic, my fear is that there is an dangerous conversation starting here. Is it our job at Mosaic to create a “seeker” environment? If that’s the case, wow, we have a lot of things/programs missing. For the person who loves the arts, it may fulfill those wants and desires, but may seem showy to someone else. There is no way we as a community can be the perfect fit for anyone, let alone everyone. As Erwin has said so many times, Mosaic changes with every new person, and each person brings unique strengths and dreams. The point of Mosaic isn’t to meet a bunch of “needs”, but to reach out to others, and focus outwardly, rather than inwardly. I believe that not everyone who attends Mosaic will find it to their liking, and how could they? We are all different, and have different personalities. If Mosaic was the only church for everyone, then wouldn’t it be too big? I think it’s okay for those who find it too showy, to look for another church, and it’s doesn’t make one style right or wrong, but different. And, I truly believe that the heart of the pastoral leadership of Mosaic, is all about God’s word being the center of the community, and reaching out to others. I would hope that as a community we wouldn’t get caught up in this kind of talk, the conversation can lead to factions, gossip, and disunity among our church. Sure, sometimes things can seem unnecessary, but it’s impossible to have a standard here, since we all have different opinions regarding this. I think Eric summed it up perfectly, and we should let the conversation die from there. Correct me if I’m wrong, Eric, though. If this is a necessary and productive conversation to continue, I gladly stand corrected.
God Bless You all…..please find no offense in my words, I only speak from a place of being at churches in the past that became divided over simple issues such as these, and it changed the heart of the church. Also, I think it’s wise to seek some of these questions answered confidentially by leaders of the church, since this website is viewed by all, especially unbelievers.
Peace!! Jen
Sep 17th, 2006 at 2:58 am
Hi Erwin,
We have never really spoken, but you have truly changed the course of mine and my families life and I thank you for that. Actually sorry. we met once… U2 tickets(please don’t read that part) Anyway I have had a question on my mind since you started this series last week, this should come out clear, but please bear with me as i have ADD and the attention span of a 2 year oldJ … SO,… FREE WILL…… we all have free will,.. but also we all have the desire to sin,.. not just a desire, but its the huge part of how our mind works… so then, how can we have free will when so much of our desire and internal motivation turns toward sin, and it seems very weighted toward the negative, and pastors say we are inherently sinners. There doesn’t seem to be an even playing field between sin and righteousness, I mean shouldn’t the desire be equal? I guess maybe this whole thing is something like a test because true love or Godly love can only be learned through hardship? It makes sense, sort of. Anyway, I know so many people struggle with a roller coaster of life’s ups and downs, so how come our desire to please God comes from the voice in the back of our head instead of the deep rooted drive that sin seems to have,… (after thinking about what you said last week, I myself would rather actually sacrifice my so called inherent sin-like decisions for just a moment if not a week long period of the divine peace that I hear about in heaven),… I understand that every human is seeking God in some way and that so many misguided hearts turn toward temporary satisfaction like drugs and alcohol, even knowing that there is something deeper that they are missing out on, I’m sorry maybe I’m alone in this, but I wish the desire to seek after God was just as strong as the desire to sin,.. and if consistent Godliness is stronger than I realize,.. how can someone with a life-long perpetual roller coaster of sin tap into that??
Sep 17th, 2006 at 3:22 am
Hi SE
All your comments are valid, some nonbeliever might be put off by the use of media or whatever, as some believers quite obviously are. I really think the bottom line is for any church to follow what it it that they believe God has placed in their hearts to do. If a church uses the arts merely because it seems a good idea then that is certainly not valid. However, if there is a genuine belief that God is saying that this is part of the culture of your particular faith community then go for it.
Just a closing thought. Did Jesus rely just on the scriptures? I think not; he used story-telling to get his point across - and that’s no different to drama or video clips.
Sep 17th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
In response to SE…
I have a very straightforward to the point question to ask, as you attend Mosaic and have given this topic a lot of thought from what I have read…
Is Mosaic more a church that uses things of man to gain believers, or the things of God? Things of man being videos, self-help books, performances, flashy glitz and glam, things of God being prayer, the Word, fellowship and love?
If you would like to email me in response, please write heikkebl@masters.edu. I don’t want to take away from the discussion.
And, in response to your question, Christians struggle heavily with idolatry and usually don’t recognize it for what it is. If we truly love and worship God alone, our actions are in response to that worship. We a. Love God, and b. Love others. If you are willing to sin in order to obtain absolutely anything, that thing is an idol. If a man leaves his family because he desires his own freedom and do things his own way, he may still love God, but he obviously loves and worships himself more.
As one of my teachers put it recently, why else would it make sense for God to command us first, and second, to have no other gods before Him, and to not make for ourselves idols? He knows where we struggle. Idolatry is at the root of all sinful behavior.
Sep 17th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Anonymous (guy problem),
Its very sad to hear about your heart-breaking situation with this guy. My first instinct (as a guy) is that he has pulled the “God card” on you, using God as a scapegoat to break up with you. I’m sure you are a wonderful person, and he didn’t want to hurt you, so he put some religious icing, knowingly or subconsciously, on the break up. I hope that gives you some peace with God, but that probably doesn’t make the boy look very great. I could be totally wrong, but I’m a guy, and it makes sense to me.
Sep 17th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
CONCERNING THE “WORD” OF GOD
A lot of folk seem pretty concerned that the “Word” of God is being veiwed as insufficient. And by the “Word” of God I assume you are referring to the myriad of letters, histories, poems we call the Bible. I would ask you to consider that the Bible as we have it is a relatively new resource…
1. Early Christians had no personal Bibles to read or study.
2. Up until the reformation, the Bible was kept in Latin and only a first-hand resource for the priests and highly educated. Many Christians weren’t even literate.
3. Up until the printing press, the Bible was not very widespread, even though it was translated.
We LOVE the Bible, that is good. But lets not keep it in the context of history, and see it appropriately as a tool, albeit a great one, through which God speaks.
If one has issues with Mosaic’s lack of scripture references, there are PLENTY of churches from which to choose. Please, don’t waste your fervor on criticizing one church’s approach. Find one you can get behind and serve God in that context.
Sep 18th, 2006 at 5:53 am
Jen is right. We don’t want any divisiveness, so let’s just drop this topic. Hopefully, it served to show that there ARE concerns with the way church is being done. But God will stir in the hearts of those who are affecting change at our church. If something is awry, it won’t go unheeded.
Paul, it is certainly not biblical to say, “If you have a problem with the way church is done here, find one you like better.” In fact, I visited a friend’s church in L.A. a couple weeks back where the pastor happened to be talking about how there ARE valid concerns in a body at times, and these concerns SHOULD be heeded.
I was merely trying to say (again): that we should not be so self-absorbed to think that just because we are serving God with our diverse talents, that others (especially non-believers) will necessarily be in need of seeing/hearing our talents in order for the Gospel to pentrate their hearts. I am all for an occasional video and unique music and a dance performance or drama presentation here and there. But the Word does not require any embellishment. Use different mediums, yes. But everything in moderation.
Brittany, thank you for your response to my question. I know that if a person claims to love Jesus and then produces no good fruit (or bad fruit), that he is not truly following Him. I just wondered how others would phrase this in a conversation with non-believers. I saw this woman again yesterday, and it is amazing to see how even though her ex-husband temporarily tarnished the name of Christ, it has not been enough to squelch this curiosity in her heart. She is definitely seeking.
Peace.
Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
Your view(s) on the WORD are very interesting,in
light of the fact that jesus said ” not one jot or
tiddle would pass away,even though heaven and earth would pass” . it is of note that he also pointed out to the jewish religious authorities of his time that they elevated men’s teaching to a status higher than GOD’S WORD ,yet reduced the WORD OF GOD, to no effect , seems the more things change the more they remain the same.Hard to know where you are going if you have no idea (nor- value)for wence you came.If GOD’S WORD is a relative and shifting , variable , why bother to even play this game we call church ! If it is
about a relationship what value is a relationship
with one who’s word is unreliable ?
Sep 19th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
when i find i am getting heated about an issue, i’ve usually found an opinion i’ve allowed to become precious to me… when i get cranky with someone over an issue of opinion, i’m usually choosing to elevate my opinion above love for people. in jesus’ terms that’s a no-no… people come before my opinions!
i reckon it is fair to say that god is sovereign - whether we agree with what he does with his sovereignty or not. he sets a place at his table for every person he creates - there’s a unique seat at the table that’s shaped just to fit you. when we find our place at the table we discover that it just fits us…
there are people around our part of the grand table that are there to help shape us and we’re there to help shape them too - the post-modern creative terms it “synergy”; “iron sharpens iron” for the traditional literalist… the shaping can be vigorous, even fierce, as long as it’s built on authentic love…
i reckon there are times when the Father, seated at the head of the table, speaks to individuals asking them to move to another part of the table, to be better shaped by the people there and to help shape them. sadly, all too often the seat swapping is the result of a lack of love - given and/or taken - in the exchanges. some folks get up and relocate themselves without direction from Dad and carry a hurt and heavy heart
in my thoughts i’m often similar to others - there is much in the culture of the day that i share in common. i can guarantee though that if you spend enough time around me i’ll find an issue where i think differently from you. i can stick it out at my part of the table, understanding i’m shaping and being shaped… or i can put on my mr potato head and move on to another part of the table - without permission… or maybe with permission to move, but certainly not with permission to take a cranky attitude
some people may not get a buzz from creative presentation - some may prefer a literary buzz - some may like to impress with their performance and artworks others prefer to impress with their elevated knowledge of what the bible says, while actually the lack an authentic relationship with the Word.lots of different scenarios are possible… when i set up a scenario that’s built on my preferences i’ve just set myself up in the middle of my world - that my friends is idolatry… ouch
i have discovered over time that i am not the centre of the universe - even though everything in my experience causes me to believe i am. i have also found that my opinions change over time, the type of music, movies, literature, imagery changes and what i once got heated about - and damaged relationships over - is no longer an issue that i get heated about… so why did i damage that relationship in the first place?
if jesus is the Word why are we so uptight about the words? shouldn’t we be more concerned about doing what it says than reading what it says? isn’t that the point? isn’t it more important to embrace the accountant and the artist, the mathematician and the musician, the vagrant and the wealthy… is any one way the right way?
in all of jesus’ preaching there is a very small percentage of it that is in reference to the scriptures of his day. why do we insist that our public gatherings are so tightly anchored to the words written in the bible and miss the ethos of the living Word himself? the sermon on the mount is a refreshing message, clearly not restricted by trying to quote what parts of prior scriptures it refers to…
in fact a lot of jesus preaching is in contradiction to what the prior scriptures had said… of course he is jesus
if we want to work on percentages, i reckon you’ll find that, word for word, the devil quotes a greater percentage of scripture in what he’s quoted as saying… what’s that about?
jesus is incredibly creative - rather than simply refer to scriptures on healing, he heals; rather than preaching on forgiveness, he forgives; rather than just talk about it he’s doing it… to limit a gathering to just talking about what the words say can completely miss the challenge to do what the Word does
christian gatherings are vital, it’s an opportunity for diversity released in unity… if you’re the literary type and it’s all too creative, why not offer to put together part of a gathering that is focussed purely on public reading of the bible. if you’re creative and it’s all too literal, why not offer to inject some creativity into the gathering…
it’s easy to be a critic, once you’re involved you get to see the heart and figure if this is where you’re called to belong. if this is your seat at the table you can expect to be shaped and to be involved in shaping… don’t move just because there’s some shaping going on… but maybe Dad is asking you to move around to another part of the table for whatever reasons he has… so move around and get involved in the shaping process there
in the meantime we do need to sample food from the whole table, but we can eat with cutlery or with fingers, from silverware or bowls, reading the dish names from the menu or just enjoying what comes and being thankful to Dad for all the strange tastes and foods and folks that are seated at his table… because we certainly wouldn’t have chosen them!
be blessed in jesus name
rev mcjock
Sep 21st, 2006 at 7:51 pm
Other hard questions that non-followers of the Christian faith often ask:
(1) what happens to generally “morally good” persons who are not Christians when they die physically?? Why should morally good non-Christians who do good works during lives be condemned to Hell, that is, eternal spiritual death ?? (e.g. good Mormons, good Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, good Atheists, good Jehovah’s witnesses, etc.);
(2) what happens to people who are generally morally good who never hear the Good News, the message about Christ and his Crucifixion and Resurrection; are they condemned to Hell ?? (e.g. a Muslim in Central Asia who never heard the New Testament or for that matter the Old Testament, never had access to a Bible or a Christian missionary, never heard of the love of God, the love of Christ, the love of a bleeding Savior flogged and crucified on a Roman cross for the sins of a fallen humanity ??; or an Indian in an isolated tribe in the depths of the Amazon who never had a loving Christian come to bring him the Good News of a God who took the form of a human baby to be born in a filthy animal’s stable in a small town called Bethlehem 2000 years ago ??)
3) another difficult question is what happens to all those Gentiles and Jews who were born, lived and died before the coming of Christ ; who never had the chance to hear Christ before he started his teachings in about 30 A.D. ; who never had a chance to hear of Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection in about 33 A.D.; millions of Jews and Gentiles who lived and died before the Messiah’s arrival in Bethlehem so long ago; 2000 years; 2000 years so long to us humans but only a second in the view of the Creator…..Shalom.
Sep 25th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
The sad thing is that I have no passion for anything anymore. I did, at one point, I had passion for a lot of things. But when i think hard about what my dreams are, I have none. I want to help people achieve their dreams, but how can i do that when i have none of my own? and how long have we been having this conversation, where we talk about how much potential I have waiting to be unleashed? I’m beginning to think its never going to be unleashed!! Doesn’t it feel like we’re wasting time? I’m not trying to throw a pity party here, but for cryin out loud, I feel like a lost cause. I listen to Erwin every day at work, and I hear what he’s saying and I long for that and I feel like I need more, but honestly I don’t know how to get there, or what to do, because I have no dreams. Listening to Erwin talk makes me realize what I could have but I can’t figure out how to get it. Like, how do you give yourself to God and really mean it? I’m a cynic, I can’t help it, and I doubt myself, and my strength.
Sep 26th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Becky: I sympathize with your feelings about a lack of passion and the problem of cynicism. I know that you with God’s almighty help can overcome this serious problem.
Focus on the love of God, the love of Christ and this will help you. Focus on the Passion of God, the Passion of the Christ. Christ who endured so much for all of us, for each and everyone of us. The Passion of Christ should give each and every one of us “passion”; a passion to run the race and the finish the race. A passion and a focus not to be distracted by the cares and worries of this fallen world. We are all but pilgrims and aliens to this fallen world.
Our true place lies in Heaven but we need to do our best to improve this world during our short stays here; and to spread the Good News while we are on earth. Our physical lives are short and quite brief. We must try to spend every day as though it were our last on this earth.
Christ spent a short 33 years on this earth but he forever changed it and forever “made things new” by his Sacrifice and his Passion. He made things new by overcoming death and sin for each and every one of us by his love, his Passion for us.
By his crucifixion and Resurrection all things are made new; death and sin are overcome; each human now has the chance by His sacrifice at eternal life and forgiveness of his/her sins.
The move the “Passion of the Christ” has a key scene where the Virgin Mary, stops to help Christ as he falls while carrying his wooden cross on the way to Calvary and His Crucifixion.
She weeps for her son and Christ comforts here saying to the Virgin Mary: “I make all things new”.
In order to have our talents, our dreams, our passions and our potentials truly unleashed we must focus on the Will of God, the love of God, and the Passion of God. By focusing on Christ’s Passion, all things will be made new for us.
Shalom and Blessings.
Sep 27th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
When it comes to “using props†to get God’s Word out to those who can not see it in black and white (with some red – ya know, Jesus’ word’s in the Bible), didn’t Jesus use parables to help illustrate His point at time? Didn’t He use what he had for the times?
Props, videos, stories, parables; it’s all good!
Sep 29th, 2006 at 9:06 pm
Phew, just finished reading all these interesting comments posted by you lovely people out there in cyberspace. For a while there though I was feeling tempted to throw in some facetious comments around some aspects of whats been said but that’s a trait I’m trying to curb.
I’m going to refrain this time, but I do have some general advice though. For those posting comments and who attend Mosaic I strongly encourage you dialog about your concerns in person. This website is great for those of us who are geographically separated from Mosaic. Through this website we can feel a sense of some connection with the Mosaic community. But for those you who are physically present in LA and attending Mosaic, your most constructive mechanism is talking face to face. Some have spoken of relationship being central to the body of Christ. Take Jesus’ lead and discourse directly with the source of anguish; who knows, you might make some new friendships in the process.
Sep 29th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
New comment = new post:
I would like to address some of Becky 21’s comments (post # 33).
Man, it absolutely sucks Becky that you are feeling that your passions and dreams have dried up. I wish we could meet one another. I would love to hear your story. But as the opportunity for that to happen will not exist in the immediate future, I would like to offer some suggestions. But before I begin, without actually meeting you, these may be irrelevant to your situation. Please take them with a grain of salt.
*Harking back to some of Erwin’s advice in Seizing Your Divine Moment, GO until you get a NO. Its actually OK to not always have a bigger idea or dream that you are chasing. What is important is that you are not watching life go by and that you are not standing on the sidelines waiting for something to happen to you to ignite that new dream. A good place to start building momentum is around the stuff you like doing and are good at. You mentioned that you want to help others realise their dreams. Have you given much thought to how you can place yourself in a position to begin learning how to do this? Maybe there is a specific area which you can bring insight to other people? Much like yourself, I want to help other realise there dreams. One of the things I do is to be relentless in acquiring new information on on topics which benefit the people I am trying to help. The caveat here is, you have to already have the relationships in place in order to to do this. See next suggestion
*Make people your focus (re Erwin’s L.I.F.E acronym). Learn to listen to what is going on in others lives. Make this a life priority. You may find that there are themes of issues among the people you know which you can help them with. Focus on helping them solve these things.
*A great way to become impassioned about something is to hang out with people who are clearly driven by a dream. Rare I know, but enthusiasm is infectious. Make friends with the people who are going to continually challenge you. Be bold and take on these challenges. Positive peer pressure is a powerfully motivator. Moreover, they may not be your peers, but older people who you respect are often wealths of untapped knowledge. Make sure you travel through life with at least a couple people one or two generations older than you.
*If you are into reading, find the best books that expand you comprehension of an area interest. I didn’t give much credence to books at high school, but something fell into place while I was at university and I just can’t get enough now. The experience of others is invaluable to help you learn about what to do, and equally important, what not to do. Books are still the best medium that records a person’s insight gained from experience (let me be clear that the self-help style book is not what I am advocating). In regards to the slightly broader issue of information, make sure your sources are diverse and stretch the relevant opinion spectrum.
*Finally, the greatest dreams for your life will be the hardest to achieve. Don’t give up trying to figure out your dreams. God has chosen you for a specific reason. You have a potential that no else has. You have gifts and strengths that are unique to Becky 21 and irreplaceable. There will be people throughout your life who will need you to be applying your gifts in pursuit of a dream in order for Becky 21 to impart God’s irreconcilable impact on their lives. You have more significance to God that you may know. And remember this, most overnight successes are 20 years in the making - this is to say, if are conscientious and tenacious in paying attention to the small things in life while striving for that breakthrough point in the future, you will more than likely experience success, and at the very least you will never be bored with life.
As I said if any of this sounds like nonsense to you, disregard it completely. But if you have any Q’s, feel free to email me: tyro.bwc@gmail.com.
Sep 30th, 2006 at 1:03 am
Well put Benn (interesting name you have there, the double ‘n’ I mean), I think you nailed some very good points about discovering your passions and unmeasurable potential. You obviously follow the journey Erwin is on, have you considered the internship?
I’d like to follow-up just a little bit on something Benn said about Becky Age 21s’ post. He pointed out that Becky Age 21 actually did have a dream and that was to help others achieve their own dreams.
I couldn’t help but chuckle when I read that in your post Becky Age 21 because I think you may have unwittingly answered one of your own questions. Wanting to help ‘others realise their dreams’ is a very valid dream in itself, Erwin and his crew may throw that phrase around quite a bit but that doesn’t make it the default thing everyone does if they can’t think of anything else. It certainly isn’t the dream everyone has and for most of us its hard enough to get our heads around our own dreams, let alone other peoples. I’d be really interested in hearing about what starts happening in your life once you start to discover how it is you can draw the dreams out of other people. Maybe then you can help me discover mine ;)
Here’s a couple of things I’ve found really helpful in equipping myself to realise my dreams (I’m still very much a work in progress – watch this space!). Surround yourself with the kind of people who are already deep in their purpose or who are busy with discovering what that is. These are the best kind of people to catch the dream-bug from and you can bet your first-born on the fact they’ll be more than willing to share it with you. Secondly, if you’re feeling like you’re doing nothing then put yourself in Gods way and start doing the next thing you come across. You might just find its the very dream God had in store for you all along, and if not, you can always use it as the platform to launch yourself closer to what it actually might be.
Oct 1st, 2006 at 2:24 am
please address the topic of eating disorders…
Oct 3rd, 2006 at 9:28 am
Becky Age 21,
The bible teaches us that there is a season for bearing fruit. Creation teaches us that flowers are not the fruit. The fruit comes after the blossom withers and dies. I don’t know whether its fun being a blossom or fun being fruit but I do know its not about us, its about Jesus. I was very much a weed when I was 21. Be very thankful you are more than likely a blossom and rejoice at being in the season God has you in. Oh, and read or listen to Paris Reidhead’s sermon “10 Shekels and a shirt”. You can find it searching with Google.
Oct 3rd, 2006 at 6:04 pm
An interesting point inadvance41 (re post #40).
Speaking of creation metaphors and the lessons take from them, I have always been fond of the concept of a tree’s root structure and how, generally speaking, it is absolutely vital that a tree develop a system and network of roots embedded in the ground to ensure long-term health and growth.
In life, this system of roots is the foundation of values and beliefs we shape our lives around. Our ‘roots’ are also the character attributes we choose to develop and embody for ourselves, and at in least in my case, that character to be emulated is that of Jesus.
The relationships we make and choose to sustain are like the soil in which we would choose to plant a tree. A soil that is rich in the right composition nutrients and minerals will help the tree develop strength and robustness. This robustness is essential if the tree is to stand against the wind (wink :p).
I specifically say ‘the right composition’, because what might seem like good quality soil might not be the right type for the particular plant you are trying to grow. Just as incorrect ‘good soil’ will deprive the tree of what it needs, advice offered to you throughout your life may make good sense and seem helpful but not all of it will actually align with the intention of ones life; this is to say not all good advice will be appropriate for you.
The point of a tree is not for it to stand alone. It is a small aspect of a much grander ecosystem where the synergies and relationship not only make life possible and create an environment worth living in (a noble purpose indeed), but also to help demonstrate the splendour and intricacies of God and His nature.
So where am I going with this? Good question, but I do have a point (I think). “Life is like a box of chocolaâ€â€¦just kidding. Bearing fruit is important and the ability to do so indicates that the functional elements of a tree are working properly. But to create fruit that is a succulent, mouth-watering, full-of-flavour, melt-in-your-month experience, as well as delivering essential vitamins and antioxidants, the tree must be borne from an environment which has nurtured and provide life giving sustenance in harmony with the needs of the tree.
Becky 21, and for whoever else really, I hope you receive the right insights and advice for others that will aid you in maximising the life God would want you to experience.
Oct 3rd, 2006 at 6:10 pm
I’d like to say one thing concerning the conversation Anonymous started about the validity of the notion that the bible should be the only source necessary when dealing with people who don’t follow Jesus (all the way back at post number 5).
I know this has been debated to death in this thread and I’m thankful for that but I think the story (John Gordon’s) Erwin shared in his latest conversation with the people of Mosaic is a shining example of how everything in life (whether its man-man or not) can be and should be used in expressing the love of Jesus. More than that it seems the very land we live on aches to express its love for God, regardless of how we feel about it.
Oct 3rd, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Why is God so unreasonably tough on Divorce ??
Christ says that a man can not divorce his wife unless his wife committs adultery. The same rule applies to wives divorcing their husbands.
This rule appears too strict because if God wants us to be happy then He should let us seek a marriage with someone else who will make us happier ??
Sometimes people grow apart; sometimes there is spousal abuse; sometimes one spouse changes for the worse, emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc.
Did not Christ forgive the Woman taken in adultery and brought before him for judgment ??
Many of my friends come from divorced parents; but they seem to be OK. Some of my friends have gotten divorced but they appear to be OK.
Isn’t the “pursuit of happiness” guaranteed to us in the U.S. Constitution ??
I thought that Christ forgave the sinful woman who came to him and washed his feet with her hair and poured valuable perfume upon his feet; all in front of a Phairisee ??
Secondly, why does the Church overly stress the importance of the Family Unit ?? That is a married Heterosexual couple with children. In many countries in Europe, it is common to find young unmarried couples with children; in the U.S. itself, many families are single parent families where one spouse is absent. How come the Pope and many Protestant church leaders lecture us so much on the family unit ?? I know that some people say Christ’s first miracle was at a wedding in Cana but that was 2000 years ago. People are now having test tube babies and soon there will be designer babies; who knows within a few years there may be human cloning.
Oct 4th, 2006 at 9:05 pm
I have a teenage daughter who has been dating a guy who was brought up as a jehovahs witness. In the beginning he use to try to get us to study with them invited us to a convention and to what they call kingdom hall but we refused everytime.
(In the beginning I’ve tried to get my daughter to break up with him (including others have tried) and just keep him as a friend but she refuses eachtime)
Later on his elders at the kingdom hall gave him what they call the opportunity to choose to either continue going to church or break up with my daughter he chose to leave his church because he says he really loves her. (They managed to do it in what they call a concerned way)
What has really been bothering me though is the fact that he thinks he is going to die for making this decision. He thinks that God is going to or already has turned his back on him. No matter how many times I’ve tried to reassure him, shared the bible with him, tried to bring people in his presence who might be able to help he continues to dismiss everything even going to church with us This guy is even afraid to walk in a christian bookstore. He makes excuses. I’ve tried to reassure him that no one is gonna make him do something he doesnt wanna do. I’ve tried to stay real understanding with him but I can definitely say it has been a challenge. I feel that I should be doing so much more (besides prayer) what do you think ?
Oct 4th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Hey Skeptic No. 53
I just want to mention something about your great question. I grew up surrounded by divorce so I do know a bit about it but I can’t imagine what it’s like to feel trapped in a loveless relationship. But I think the reason God holding high standards for it is because it’s purely an issue of faith and love. When someone is divorcing they do not believe God is powerful enough to restore you, your spouse and the marriage. “What God has joined together, let no man seperate” Jesus says. Meaning, when another human– a created being– says- “No God, I hold the power to legally seperate what you have made and put togther”, it is US saying- “God, I don’t think you’re big enough, wise enough or strong enough to heal this.” A direct insult to Gods power, love for you as a couple, and love for you as an individual. God also knows the bigger picture. It is incredibly foolish to think divorce only affects the couple at that time and not the individual later through life or more so the children. I am in my mid thirties and just now finally feeling like I can climb out of how my parents divorce after “marrying the wrong person” has shaped my views and relationships and self esteme. When you say you’re getting a divorce you are telling God himself that you don’t believe in His power– and that is the greatest insult. Yes there is grace… but God is saying to you–”I am strong enough to heal you and your wife and your marriage, but you have to want it. FIGHT for you marriage– fight for her– get rid of the scoreboard and forgive- the way I am constantly forgiving you. Stop taking from one another and give no matter how you are treated. And never ever allow a man I created to tell me that I don’t have the power or authority to bind you together.” I honestly believe that Divorce is not a matter of seperation but a lack of faith in God, his power and you giving up on love. God IS love. Thanks for raising the question, I hope Erwin can shed some light on it and your other questions.
And as for all the Mosaic “distractions” and the Word of God standing alone stuff throughout the posts—What ever happened to just having a gift and the church gives you a platform to use it? Is that wrong? And it upsets me that people assume that we DONT use scripture. Have you listened to a message lately? We’ve never ever ever changed or took away from the true story,- we just give it HD color and dolby surround sound. Thanks.
Oct 9th, 2006 at 12:24 am
thanks for doing the tough question series.
good stuff…
Oct 9th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
It has always troubled me about God’s commandmant, Christ’s commandment to forgive the guilty, the oppressors of this world. There is so much injustice and oppression in this world. You really have to stand up for your rights, and the rights of your relatives and the rights of your friends. There are so many jerks and people that will take advantage of you if you allow them an inch they will take a yard.
Why does Christ tell us to turn the other cheek; to carry the Roman soldier’s backpack another mile ; to forgive seven times seventy times ?? It really does not make any sense especially in countries where they will kill or torture you for being a Christian.
This world is a world gone mad with violence, oppression and injustice. Muslims kill Christians, Christians kill Muslims, Muslims kill Jews, Hindus kill Muslims, blacks attack Latinos, whites attack blacks, gangs fight gangs, the police fight gangs, etc., etc.
This world is run on justice and getting your pound of flesh whether it be on the streets of South Central or East L.A. or in the courtroom with divorce lawyers and corporate lawyers or on the streets of Wall STreet.
What that lunatic did to those 5 innocent Amish schoolgirls demands justice doesn’t it ?? It is really crazy that those Amish forgive that evil man for doing what he did.
How can Christ ask us to do such a hard thing and such an abnormal thing ?? You always see those people celebrating outside the prison when they execute someone heinous on Death Row; it seems as though that is the human condition to want justice and revenge………
The U.S. has more people in prison per capita than any other nation on Earth; even the dictatorships in Third World nations do not have a Prison-Industrial Complex like us Americans do; we have so many prisoners in California that we need to house them in other states. The public demands justice and the 3-Strikes law. No politician gets elected demanding forgiveness. Things have not really changed in two thousand years. The Romans demanded justice and crucified thieves and other undesirables and so do we.
How can you forgive a friend for cheating you in business; how can you forgive a woman for being unfaithful to you; how can you forgive people who committ war crimes; how can you forgive your parent or sibling for not looking out for you ??
Oct 10th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
How does God keep track of all of our prayers ?? There are so many people in the world; millions; billions of people.
Look at all the people driving on the freeway just in one spot. There must be hundreds if not thousands of those people alone praying with worries and anxieties; sick relatives, a death in the family killing them with sorrow, a strained friendship with an old friend; a broken romantic relationship or marriage; financial problems, health problems, job problems, school problems, etc.
How does God keep track of all these desperate prayers ?? Some would ask does God keep track of all these prayers or just the important ones ??
Others would ask: does God only hear the prayers of Christians ??
Does the Creator of Heaven and Earth who created the Universe out of nothingness hear the prayers of Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhists, animists ??
Does God who they say knows when a sparrow falls, hear the prayers of only the righteous ??
Does he hear the prayers of biker gang members, corrupt politicians, unethical businessmen, the greedy, the profane, adulterers, condemned killers, thieves, robbers, embezzelers, crooked lawyers, drug dealers ??
Does the Creator hear the prayers of the children dying of famine, disease; the soldiers dying on the battlefield, those lonely and without hope like runaway teenagers living on the street; street gang members without a family, the homeless ??
Oct 12th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Why has Christ waited so long to return ?? It has been 2000 years and we still wait for His Second Coming ??
There is so much suffering, loneliness, injustice, pain on this Planet….
On the street I saw a girl cold and shivering in a thin dress, with little hope of a decent meal.
I became angry and said to God: WHY did you permit this ? WHY don’t you do something about it??
For a while God said nothing.
That night He replied quite suddenly: “I certainly did something about it. I made you.”
Oct 15th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
In response to the discussion of media, drama, etc in presenting the gospel… I think we should depend on the word to motivate us to act. The Apostle Paul was clear in how far he would go to share the Gospel in 1 Cor 9:19-23…
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Paul said he would become all things to all me so that by all possible means he might save some. Paul had a passion for the lost and preached the Gospel without the benefit of the NT text. Shouldn’t we us the Word and every possible means (short of sin) to reach the lost? Drama, video, etc… if standing on your head better communicates the Gospel for someone, by all means stand on your head. As a believer, do whatever God puts on your heart to glorify Him and redeem the lost to Him
Oct 16th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Barrabas once said:
“Why does Christ tell us to turn the other cheekâ€
Hey Barrabas, let me offer a little insight to this tiny part of your post (sorry I can’t answer anything else you’ve written!). Back in the day if someone wanted to disrespect you they would slap you in the face with the back of their [right] hand to your [left] cheek. On the other hand, if someone wanted to great you in friendship and love they would pat your right check with the palm of their right hand.
So turning the other cheek (i.e. offering your right cheek after someone slapped you) meant you were giving the person who wronged you the chance to make amends…if they didn’t, their behaviour was no longer your responsibility and further action could be taken (by the appropriate people or God depending on what the situation was).
So the lesson for us I guess is that we’re to treat the injustices we go through as an opportunity to show the grace and love of Jesus by the way we respond during those times.
Oct 17th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Dear Friends:
With respect to comment #50 by Rico and other comments, I think that the most important thing is not the means, the props or the media by which the Good News is conveyed but the most vital thing is that there is someone, in fact, preaching and bringing the Good News and the Gospel, to the lost, the blind, the lonely and the broken-hearted of this world.
I must refer you all to Romans Chapter 10: 13-15 which reads as follows:
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!”
Oct 18th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
I think many questions in this series are very sincere, but it seems to highlight a very weak view of sin, particularly our own, since we have a log in our eye. For example, when Paul said “For me to live is Christ…” I have substituted Christ for other words such as “For me to live is being recognized, fishing for compliments, getting approval, being needed etc.” As C.S. Lewis would say those are second things, Christ is first thing! I think when we grasp and are humble that Christ paid the subtle, covert and overt sins, we can dance and bathe in His grace and glory. I think gratitude emerges and our heart is unleashed for His service.
Oct 19th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Mike of Comment No. 53, raises an interesting question regarding sin.
How can God, a God of infinite Love, also be a God of such severe divine Judgment and exclude most of humanity from the Kingdom of Heaven (e.g. condemn most of Humanity to the punishment of an everlasting Hell) ??
How can a God of infinite Love, also create such a terrible place such as Hell and send so much of humanity to this Hell, described in some parts of the Bible as a huge garbage dump full of fire.
The New Testament clearly in many places sets forth a very harsh view of sin and in many places specifically states that committing certain sins will plainly exclude one from Heaven (this exclusion apparently will not only apply to non-followers of Christ but also to “Christians” who fall away and committ these sins also).
For example, at 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, the text states: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
In fact, the very last two chapters of the very last book of the Bible at Revelation 21:7-8 and at Revelation 22:14-15, specifically state that humans who committ certain sins will be excluded from Heaven and spend eternity in Hell.
“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates of the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”
Revelation 22: 14-15.
Oct 21st, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Is being a jehovahs witness really a cult? How can celebrating birthdays and holidays really be wrong? How can blood transfusions be wrong?
does anyone care?
Oct 23rd, 2006 at 1:21 pm
Agrippa,
“How can God, a God of infinite Love, also be a God of such severe divine Judgment and exclude most of humanity from the Kingdom of Heaven (e.g. condemn most of Humanity to the punishment of an everlasting Hell) ??â€
Erwin goes does a good job of tackling your question in one of his talk in this series. You should check it out if you haven’t already. From memory I think its called “Why is there Hellâ€
Oct 25th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
In regards to what Bartimeus wrote:
The MEANS by which the Message is conveyed, is what can be a bit convoluted at times. I think that’s what the whole argument/dialogue has been. Not the use of it. Keep using it, because different people will respond to different things.
But keep it in check. Meaning, make sure it’s relevant to the message, and that the package is foremost about JESUS and not what the people (artists) feel like conveying. Make sure to convey the WORD, foremost. The rest is just icing.
Peace.
Oct 26th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Wow, this is my first time on this site and I’m amazed at some of the converation I am reading. It sounds like a lot of people definitely shouldn’t be attending the Mosaic. The negative attitudes and narrow thinking about what God is able to use to reach seekers is saddening. I attend a seeker oriented church in Indiana and we use all types of drama, videos, and contemporary (dare I say it?…even some secular) music to reach people. We meet them where they are and with things they can relate to. We have boomed to over 700 in less than 2 years as a new church plant. Most of these people had given up on church or had really bad experiences where people were very judgmental in their thinking of what was right and wrong with what happened on Sunday mornings. I hear alot of those judgmental attitudes here. It makes my heart hurt that people think they understand black and white what God does and doesn’t do to reach people for His Kingdom. Unfortunately, it’s not until we go through tough times ourselves that we better understand the amazing grace of God and that we should extend that grace to others as well. Mosaic, I applaud what you are doing and thank you for being willing to think outside the box on how to reach your community out there. Way to be the light in a community that obviously needs some expanding on their understanding of who God is and how He reaches people. Keep on serving Him!
Oct 27th, 2006 at 4:34 am
Jesus healed, raised the dead, he wept. He was part of the community. If we are fellowshipping with others (Kononia) then we can attend to peoples needs in physical way and in a trusting way. We can do this through art, music and dance. Then it’s as if the soil of the hearts of people is broken and open to receive the seeds of Truth as Jesus’ parable goes. It all goes back to Jesus who entered space and time (Incarnate Lord) and the relationship He demonstrates (Trinity). Awesome. Jesus is high compassion and high conviction - both. Kingdom focused, Tiv.
Oct 27th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
what do you think happens to babies’ spirits after they die? what about babies that aren’t born yet? how about people with mental disabilities?
my little cuzin died from cancer at the age of 3. he was baptized in the catholic church as an infant, but he never said the “prayer”. is this a topic erwin is going to address? i’ve heard of an age of accountability, is this b.s.? thanks for doing this series, it’s been the best thing i’ve heard in a church! good job keepin it real! peace.
Oct 28th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Chris,
Checking in one more time here.
Are you a part of the Mosaic community?
If you’re not, you don’t know that the people here LOVE what’s going on. We are all about Jesus. And communicating Him to His people by different means.
All people are saying here is to make sure that the drama/video “comtemporary” stuff (as you called it) are always being checked against the word of God.
The argument is not about omitting it. No way. People need to hear it/see it in different ways.
Just make sure it’s Jesus’ truth at heart of it. Always.
Peace.
Oct 28th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
For those who are struggling with the idea that Mosaic might not be fully honoring the solid, powerful truth of God’s word because they incorporate creative elements in presentations, take heart: It is not undermining in any way. I have been priviledged to hear Erwin McManus speak outside of Mosaic, and he is firmly committed to the full truth and power of God’s word.
I teach and read Koine Greek, the language in which the majority of the New Testament was composed. It is difficult to explain, but there is a huge difference between students who learn to translate and those who learn to think in Greek. Suffice it to say that putting the message of the New Testament into English involves a great deal of contextualiation. There are features of Greek verbs, for instance, which have no parallels in English at all–we simply can’t grasp the concept. But with the Holy Spirit’s help, people CAN understand the eternal truths of scripture in their own language.
Mosaic is multidimensional, and perhaps it would be helpful for you to view elements like video as serving the role of an alternate translation. It is a different language, and one that meets many people where they are. When I help my children learn the Bible, coloring pages and crafts are great tools. Video is the same.
In Acts 1 we are told to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. That means crossing cultural barriers as well as geographic ones. In 1 Corinthians 9:22 Paul says “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” [The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), 1 Co 9:22-23.]
Oct 28th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
I love Mosaic and am a huge fan of Erwin but in his talk about “Is God in Your Future”, he is totally off and misrepresents the view on Calvinism. Calvinism is NOT fatalism. I am a Southern Baptist that is not reformed, and have read much wonderful material on the reformation and Calvinism. There is a branch called hyper-Calvinism which is what I think Erwin is really speaking about, but Fatalism accepts what the Bible says about God’s sovereignty without acknowledging the verses about human responsibility and free agency. Much of the rest of contemporary Christianity does just the opposite — swallowing free agency without facing up to the sovereignty verses. Both approaches leave one with a truncated Bible and a distorted image of God. “True Calvinism is not fatalism. Calvinism believes in a personal God who has unmitigated sovereignty. Fatalism believes in impersonal fate. Calvinism celebrates (with the Bible) the purposefulness of life. Fatalism espouses meaninglessness. Calvinism sets hope on the future manifested glory of God. Fatalism looks forward to nothingness.” I hope he has a chance to thoroughly research and ask true Reformers, Calvinists etc on this issue. Since I listen to Erwin via podcast, I have noticed that he has taken pot shots at this particular branch of Christianity….this is the same problem I had when attending another congregation….friendly fire!
Oct 29th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Dear Fran of Comment No. 55,
God does care very much about you and about your questions. God asks us to act in faith and through faith in God we can do the impossible.
Regarding your questions about the Jehovah’s Witnesses: The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, I must refer you to a good Christian book entitled:
“Fast Facts on False Teachings” by Ron Carlson and Ed Decker.
This fine text shows the follower of Christ how to defend the Christian faith and gives an analysis of other religions based on Bible Scripture. Chapter 8 of this book has an analysis and summary of the Jehovah’s Witnesses religion.
Christ himself warned us to be watchful and ready to defend our Christian faith against false religions and false teachers and those who do not teach from the Bible in St. Matthew 24: 3-5:
“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”
Oct 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
As to the comments in #61 and #62 and others regarding the mode of worship and the use of multimedia, drama, etc., I think that what is important to keep in mind is where our “heart of worship” is located.
The key issue is whether our heart of worship is for the glorification of God and expanding God’s Kingdom here on Earth; or is the heart of our worship to glorify ourselves and to glorify earthly things and things of this world ??
God the Creator of Heaven and Earth and all things, can see into our hearts.
God will save those who seek to glorify Him first above all things.
Scripture states that before Christ’s Second Coming, the environment on Earth will be like that of the days of Noah before the Great Flood; in those days people forgot God and sought to glorify themselves and glorify earthly things.
We must seek to avoid that fatal mistake and seek in all things to glorify God first, and Not to glorify ourselves above God and His Word.
I quote from St. Matthew 24: 35-41 as follows:
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the Flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
Oct 31st, 2006 at 7:31 am
I am sure glad that Mosaic has a very humble and God-seeking environment among their artisans and leadership staff. it really does show in all that they do.
Oct 31st, 2006 at 3:53 pm
To John of Comment Number 65, your reply is appreciated and obviously made in good faith.
However, one must be careful to discern what is indeed the glorification of God when we come to worship God.
It is enough to be humble and God-seeking alone ?? Some would say that is good enough. Others would say that the worship of God in order to truly Glorify God must preach the Word of God and follow the Word of God.
I think that the Scripture from Hebrews 4:12-13 is enlightening here and it reads in pertinent part:
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with who we have to do.”
Oct 31st, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Okay, checking in one last time.
For clarification: in regards to Russ’s comment:
“For those who are struggling with the idea that Mosaic might not be fully honoring the solid, powerful truth of God’s word because they incorporate creative elements in presentations, take heart”…
In no way was anyone ever doubting that Mosaic is ATTEMPTING to honor God and His truth through the use of creative elements–
the issue here has been the CONTENT of said creative elements.
No one is saying a.) Mosaic is wrong to be using them or b.) Mosaic is not attempting to honor God. People seem to be saying…
make CERTAIN that you are honoring God’s TRUTH, his actual WORD (Scripture) in these elements.
Anyone who’s a regular Mosaic-ite can say that yes, the “meaning” is in the heart of the beholder (these elements are all open to interpretation).
But this isn’t just regular “art” we’re talking about. If we’re talking about saving lives by conveying the message of God in multi-faceted ways, then by all means, PLEASE be clear about the message of God when you communicate it.
It’s convoluted many times. Too messy. Too artsy just for the sake of being artsy.
Peace OUT.
Love, y’all.
Oct 31st, 2006 at 5:43 pm
It’s funny that Christians really have a hard time seeing the GOOD shining throught big-bad-scary elements of Mosaic. I am not a follower yet. But even I can see that hundreds of people are coming to Christ each year through Mosaic. Erwin uses TONS of scripture in his talks. Apparently they are meeting their goals. I don’t get why so many of you Christian argue over the dumbest things… are the elements glorifying God? Is there enough word?
…and you people wonder why people look at Christianity and walk away dazed and confused.
Nov 1st, 2006 at 11:39 am
Dear Rickie and Nalg of Responses #68 and #69,
Both of your comments are well taken and there is some merit in both of them.
I guess what we are essentially dealing with here is the balance between: (1) The Church being “relevant to the culture”; and (2) The Church being true to its calling and true to the Word of God (Bible).
The debate over the balance being these two vital principles is heated and important to a lost and dying world.
Some would say that the Church’s most important duty is to be true to its calling, that is, to glorify God; and to be true to the Word of God.
Others would say that the Church’s most important duty to to be relevant to the culture, in a particular time and space in human history.
Some would say that the overstressing of being relevant to the culture has resulted in many mainline Protestant denominations being consumed and eaten up by secular culture and secular values to the point that the Church cannot be readily distinguished from the secular mainstream culture; and that such a “seeker-oriented strategy” has led to the demise, division and depopulation of once healthy, important church denominations such as the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Episcopolians, the American Baptists, and even many Roman Catholic dioceses all over the U.S.
In other words, some point to the statistical facts that the divorce rate in most Protestant churches is now somewhat higher than the general population for example.
Some cite Scripture that followers of Christ are separate themselves from the world and remember that they are but “aliens” and “pilgrims” on this Earth.
Others argue that the only way to rebuild the membership of depleted and aging Protestant and Catholic congregations is to be “seeker friendly” and relevant to the culture.
They cite Scripture that followers of Christ are to be the “salt of the earth” and that Christians are to go out and encounter the “Samaritan woman at the well” and to confront the “Demon possessed man”; to welcome the corrupt tax collector “Zaccheus” and break bread with him at his house; and to have compassion on the “sinful woman” who wiped Christ’s feet with her hair and poured perfume on Christ’s feet.
Such is the debate as we face the lonely, the despairing, the poor, the lost, the imprisoned, and the dying of this world. We must remind them that Christ is with them and with us.
“….All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” - which means, “God with us.”
Matthew 1:22-23
Nov 1st, 2006 at 6:20 pm
you think Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Episcopolians, the American Baptists are being as a whole relevant? I would say that the reason those statistics are so high is because they aren’t and there is a disconnect between faith and real life.
Nov 5th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Dear John of #71 and Zechariah of #70 comments,
I think that you are both observant and insightful. As to John’s comment in #71, whenever there is a “disconnect between faith and real life” we can expect a “Falling Away” from the Word of God by the Church here on Earth.
In many places in the New Testament, God warns us of a predicted “Apostasy” or great “Falling Away” by the Church from the Word of God, in the Last Days.
2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4:
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, Except there
come a Falling Away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showeth himself that he is God.”
The Apostasy or Falling Away from God and God’s Word occurs whenever a Church’s leader(s) and/or a Church’s members oppose the teachings in the Bible
(God’s Word) and exalt themselves above God, that is put their own human/earthly priorities above God; and seek to put their own glory/success before the glorification of God.
The most common form of Apostasy is to twist/misinterpret Scripture from the Bible in order to fit one own’s human interpretation/goals in order to make oneself popular with the crowd or one’s teachings appealing to the crowd.
Christ’s teachings were not popular with the crowd and many of his followers abandoned him. Peter denied him three times. Thomas refused to believe until he felt the actual wounds in Christ’s hands and side. Judas betrayed Christ for thirty pieces of silver. However, St. Paul formerly Saul of Tarsus was faithful to the Word of God despite torture, beatings, threats, starvation, cold, shipwrecks, imprisonment, isolation and even to the point of death.
Nov 6th, 2006 at 8:35 am
Hey Mosaic Community,
From cold (spiritually) New England… Erwin and the team are rockin’ the world. We went to Origins/Ethos this past May and got rocked. I’m a Mosaic Podcast addict.
About all of the comments about sticking to the simple power of the word; you’re missing the point. Erwin, Alex and clan get it in a very deep way. If we’re going to be living letters ourselves, we need to be released to communicate. Every generation has to own the gospel of Jesus Christ and it will only own the message if they are allowed to wrestle with it artistically and creatively and have that process honored by the body. Those “high school videos” are the struggling soul of tomorrows Kingdom.
I serve in New England. If you want a sneak peek into what a church that seeks to preserve, come to my town. You’ll find lots of churches that stopped preaching Jesus because they were too busy preserving. Creativity has never squelched the kingdom. I be willing to risk that error!
Currahee
Nov 12th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
I wanted to ask this question but I missed out. I wanted to know why God allows us to move some where knowing that for the rest of our lives we would be miserable. Also why does God open a door to only slam it in our faces as we try and walk through it.
Nov 13th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
To: John of #74.
Have faith my brother. Have faith in the Lord and fear the Lord. Read Psalm 103 “A Psalm of David”.
David was persecuted as his enemies sought to kill him and he was hunted down like an animal.
David had faith in the Lord.
Here is part of Psalm 103:
“Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with loving-kindness and tender mercies …..”
My brother, remember the times and instances where the Lord has shown you loving-kindness and tender mercies; do not dwell upon your trials and troubles. If David did that, he would have given up but instead David had faith in God remembering the blessings and mercy of God upon him in the past.
Many a follower of Christ has lost his faith because he thought his fervent prayer to God for mounted Cavalry to rescue him was denied. These followers should have remembered the Cross on Calvary where Jesus died. Christ has already shown his infinite love for us by dying for all of us and our sins at Calvary. Have faith my brother in the tender mercies of God.
Nov 14th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
The opening message of ‘The Art of Life’ series was absolutely amazing. Thank you David for a sermon I’ve been waiting my whole life to hear. Often I’ll hear a speaker other than Erwin and think what a great job they did, but feel they just don’t compare with him. I know this unfair, but I can’ help it. Not so with David’s message. I realise that a huge amount of time and effort was put into that message by a number of people, but I’m so glad: I encountered God in a way so rich and profound as a result.
Nov 15th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Rickie,
It’s not “dumb” to be concerned about whether or not the name of Jesus is being represented TRUTHfully. Yes, many people come to Christ at our church– but that is the work of the Holy Spirit. He uses us in spite of ourselves at times. God is good.
Tom, creativity IS essential. But not creativity just for the sake of being “creative.” It is essential to be mindful of the TRUTH of the Word in the midst of these elements.
Those churches that you reference, who stopped teaching the name of Jesus in their efforts to “preserve”– that is the antithesis of what our aim should be.
We should aim to teach MORE of the name of Jesus (thus “preserving” His name in His church)– while being “creative.”
The two must co-exist.
No one at all has argued here the use of said elements.
The “argument” is simple: please make sure not to lesson Jesus’ time in the spotlight on Sunday– for the sake of presenting a “cool” element. This is how it’s coming across to many out there.
Real love.
Nov 15th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
The comments of Cam and Nalg
of #76 and #77 are both informative.
One must worship God for his infinite creativity.
“The love of God is creative to infinity.”
St. Vincent de Paul.
We must recognize that our world and our nation though does not respect the creativity of God. An estimated 125 million orphan children live now on Planet Earth without fathers, mothers or families to love them. In Brazil alone, there are an estimated 7 to 8 million orphan children who live in the streets. In Moscow, orphans live in the subways and sewers.
In our own nation, orphans live in foster care homes or on the street.
One of the greatest creations of God, human babies and children abandoned and neglected.
In the U.S. alone, an estimated 25 million babies have been aborted in the past 20 or so years.
One of the greatest creations of God, a human child destroyed.
The followers of Christ were at the forefront of great human rights causes from the abolition of slavery in the U.S. before and during the Civil War; to the civil rights movement in the Southern U.S. during the 1960’s with Rev. Martin Luther King.
I think there is a call right now,
to the followers of Christ to be creative in solving this nationwide and worldwide problem of orphan children and neglect of babies and children.
Creativity is very important in showing the love of God and communicating the love of God to a world and a nation
increasingly dominated by the values of the “culture of death”.
We must be creative but we must also remain faithful to the essentials of the Christian faith.
Without the essentials and fundamentals of the Christian faith, even the most creative and beautiful house will collapse when a flood comes.
See Luke 6:46-49.
We must remember the words of warning from Jesus himself: “Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth ?”
Luke 18:8
Blessings and Shalom.
Nov 16th, 2006 at 6:43 am
reading a good book by an author named Sider. called Evangelism vs. social action ..
about being like Jesus and preaching, teaching and healing. balancing evangelism with social action..it’s very good. God Bless.
Nov 16th, 2006 at 6:47 am
Good News and Good Works: A Theology for the Whole Gospel by
Ronald J. Sider
Nov 20th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Praise the Lord for his creativity and his compassion.
God created the universe and heaven and earth out of nothingness. Wow what an ultimate artist!!
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness…..”
Genesis 1:1-4
The Gospel in the Book of John explains that God sent Light in the form of Christ to Earth in order to save Humanity from